Michael: Hello, everyone, and welcome to HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we are here today. Today we're going to talk about a quote that we've been living by a long time, and it is.
Kathryn: You don't get to clarity alone.
Michael: That's right. You don't get to clarity alone. We're going to unpack that today, because the idea of what community means and the people in your lives that give you counsel, advice, and we're going to talk about three different types of people, we're going to talk about partnerships that you form, formal and informal partnerships over time, cheerleaders, and advisors.
Kathryn: The main reason that we want to talk about this is we encounter things along the way, as all people do, and a friend of ours recently said, again, leadership is lonely. On of the things that happens with leaders sometimes is there's this myth that somehow you have to do it alone, that you can manage it alone, that you can have your hands in everything. Whatever those things are, there's a myth of leadership that we want to just kind of give you some advice and a break on.
Michael: Yeah. Absolutely. One of the things that's important, and we've been living by this mantra a long time, we actually learned it from Terry Walling, he's been on the podcast before, you've heard us talk about Terry before, he's a great friend, mentor, and owns his own company, and deals in the leadership development arena, and he is really good at that coaching and leadership development. We have learned a lot from Terry over the last 10 years. We love leadership development. But he came along and he said, "You don't get to clarity alone." Part of that is the idea of coaching. We don't have that on our list as coaches. Maybe that falls in the true leader advisor category, or maybe there's a fourth category we missed.
Kathryn: Coach therapist.
Michael: Yeah, but advisors, coaches, cheerleaders, I like that, we'll have four now. When you're talking about this, and you're sitting there, and you're realizing whenever you're stuck in life, you're stuck not because you want to be, or not stuck because you think that's fun, you're stuck because you can't see the door out. A great quote that we were listening to last night, one narrative, on escape rooms. This couple was talking about having a escape room, being in a escape room together remembering how it was hard, and how they figured out eventually, and stuff like that.
Kathryn: And they found the door and the way out.
Michael: She was saying in this situation they were in, as a couple, that she couldn't see the door. "I don't see a door here. I don't see a way out of this mess." What we need so often is other people to help bring clarity to a situation, because we don't get to clarity alone, we don't always see it alone. Sometimes it's a simple question over dinner that a friend brings to you, sometimes it's having advisors, but in business, you really need to be intentional, as in life, but in business intentional to seek out folks and make sure that you have a team around, you have people, informal team around you, that fulfill these roles.
Michael: I think the advisor, the coach, the cheerleader, and the partner are four really important roles if we're going to see success in our life, and we're going to see not only financial success in our businesses, but we're going to continue to see it be smoother, and easier, less stressful and more enjoyable. And really get all the benefits of having a business.
Michael: Yesterday, we were interviewing John Butler, and he was in the studio, he was in Chico for a while, so we snuck him in the studio and did an interview with him. One of the things he said that resonates with so many business leaders is we get into business, we start a business because we are looking for the financial reward of owning a business, and we're looking for the freedom so that we can have more control over our vision, and what we're doing, our lives, and we also have more free time.
Michael: But when things are really stressful, and going crazy, and they're not going smooth and everything, all those things that create joy, and make it easier, when they're gone, they're also sucking up your time, and you don't have the ability to have those opportunities, to have freedom in your time to go spend it with your family [inaudible 00:04:12], because all this other stuff is screaming for you to take care of it.
Michael: This whole idea for us of you can't get to clarity alone has just been true over, and over, and over again. So let's talk about advisors for a moment. What stands out to you as you were thinking about this, as we were prepping for the podcast? Talk about some advisors that stand out in our lives, and briefly talk about why.
Kathryn: Yeah. One of the people that comes to mind for us is a dear friend of ours named Marc Nemanic.
Kathryn: Marc, we love you Marc. Marc is a little more mature than we are in terms of both attitude as well as decades.
Michael: Let's face it, he's older.
Kathryn: He's older. Marc, he works in the financial industry, and he came into our lives probably 10 years ago during a time where we were really wrestling with how to deal with financing and growing the company, and managing all the different pieces and parts. What was great about Marc was that he came along and helped us solve the issue we were dealing with in terms of a practical solution. But he also just became somebody that we know we can talk with on a regular basis, and Michael, you have lunch with him regularly, to just expand our thinking, and help us maintain perspective, and keep clear vision.
Kathryn: He's become kind of, you know, we'll talk about cheerleaders, I think the challenge of breaking that into categories is that some of these folks overlap-
Kathryn: ... right. So, Marc is an advisor, but he's also one of our best cheerleaders-
Michael: Marc started as a client, actually, he got brought in through [Laura 00:05:52].
Kathryn: That's right.
Michael: He oversaw a not for profit finance organization that was in the realm of-
Kathryn: Economic development.
Michael: ... yeah, economic development, thank you. It had been called the Tri County Economic Development Center for a very long time. Then they used the acronym, and blah, blah, blah.
Kathryn: The Tri County Economic Development Corporation.
Kathryn: I think.
Michael: Oh, it was messy. It was still messy. What we did is we helped them cast some vision for a 25-year-old, 30-year-old organization, he really wanted to take it in a different direction, and start shaping it and being more intentional than being just a finance organization. The ultimate actions and behaviors of what they did of helping companies get access to money for business purposes didn't change. They continue to refine, but we renamed them 3CORE, and we helped them come up with a clearer vision of what they were about, and what they wanted to be about, and work on their big, hairy, audacious goal a little bit, even though we didn't call it that back then.
Michael: So we walked through that process with him, and in that, we were able to demonstrate, by helping him, our character and our competence, and he respected that immensely, and became a cheerleader like, wow. And he saw things in us, and really encouraged us [inaudible 00:07:10] in places where we weren't sure we were as skilled in those places.
Kathryn: Yeah. So he's just a great example of somebody, he crosses boundaries for us for sure, but he, as an advisor, cheerleader, client, we became his client, one big happy family, and just really great friend in the journey, who's helped us be less lonely and have more perspective. So he's one of my faves.
Michael: Yeah, I want to highlight one thing that he said recently to me that was just super helpful is here's an example of how this works, we're moving into some areas with our companies where as we grow, we've never been here before, we've never done this before, we're intelligent people, and we study, and we learn, and we've read books, and I've read a lot of books, and listened to a lot of people. I can get stuck in a place where I know that, I know that, I know that, I really don't know how to do it, I understand the basic concept-
Kathryn: You know it conceptually, yeah.
Michael: We were talking about looking for investors for one of our [inaudible 00:08:12] hay company. We've talked about it on the podcast, and because it's continue to grow at, it's not in hyper growth, but it's an extreme growth. That's been really challenging and hard, and it's like okay, what do we do? How are we going to find investors? He said something to me, he goes, as we were talking about it over lunch a while back.
Michael: He said, "You're probably going to run into some problems finding investors in this geography, this geographical area. Because what you're talking about is a company that's growing at a rate that's very, very, very rare. The process to think through what do you use investment money for, and why do you need investor, and what the expectations are is actually a more sophisticated investment, and most people aren't exposed to that kind of sophistication and complication." He said, "Basically, in this area, you're probably not going to find, it's going to be a much smaller pool of people who are willing to deal with something that they're not familiar with, because that's more sophisticated, more complicated. Lots of smart people here, but that's just something outside their [inaudible 00:09:15], people don't like to invest in stuff that's outside what they're kind of familiar with."
Michael: I was like, "That is phenomenal advice." For the last, I don't know, several weeks, month, two, we've been talking about that, thinking about it, because it's helped shape the way we talk about things, discussions you and I both have with other people, because all of a sudden we're informed in a way that we hadn't been informed, our eyes were open to a door out of this situation that we didn't even know existed before.
Michael: All right, next, who we're talking about next?
Kathryn: Do we have to do them in order, or should we do a cheerleader now?
Michael: Let's do a cheerleader.
Kathryn: Okay. I want to talk about the importance of having people along the way who just believe in you and are willing to tell you. So I have this story I want to share, I've been thinking about it a lot lately. We have a friend named Doug, and Doug is precious to us.
Michael: Yes, he is.
Kathryn: Early on in our business, we actually were in a prayer meeting that we would go to every Monday for business people at lunch time at his company. He's a great example of somebody who's integrating his faith in his business, so we would go to this prayer meeting. We were young, business people, and we were sharing about life, and journey, and how hard things are, et cetera, et cetera. Then also the good things.
Michael: Oh, it's so hard.
Kathryn: We were puppies. One day, Doug walked in just out of nowhere, and he handed Michael and I an envelope, and in the envelope there was a check for $1,000.
Michael: Which was an enormous amount of money to us.
Kathryn: Which, at that point in time, it was a lot. He said, "I'm not entirely sure what it is that you do, but I'm fairly certain you can do something for us. So here's a down payment on that."
Michael: And we'll figure out how to collect later.
Kathryn: I was like, "What?"
Michael: It was pretty awesome, it was amazing.
Kathryn: I mean, here's an established businessman who was basically just saying, "I want to give you a tangible evidence that I believe in you." It was so empowering for us. We were so stunned. Then, we literally, like the next week, "Okay, let's have a meeting. Okay." And I think back then we started with our yellow page ads. I mean, it was a long time ago. And they were doing yellow pages. Like, "We can redesign your yellow page ads."
Michael: It was 14 years ago.
Kathryn: "Yeah, those are ugly." So that's how we started. To this day, 14 years, basically, later, they are still one of our best clients and dear friends. That was amazing, he just was a cheerleader then, and continue to be a cheerleader along the way. People like that in your life, those are the kinds of stories you just have to hold onto. This is someone who believed in us, and now I want to make good on that, and I feel super excited that someone who's further down the road than we are is looking at us, as we're younger and saying, "I totally believe in you guys."
Michael: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Kathryn: Big cheerleader.
Michael: Cheerleader, he's lived a life of encouraging words as long as we've known him. He's also been one of those folks that are ponying up with cash. You know what, in today's world, if you want to be an encourager to somebody, if you want to, especially young businesses and things like that, buy their products, invest some money in them. You know what, it speaks volumes when somebody is like, "Yeah, I'm willing to buy your product. I'm willing to trust you with my money." It's one thing that we get out, we hang out, or do stuff, or we see each other and say hi, and shake hands, and blah, blah, blah. But, here's some money. That's a big cheerleading move.
Kathryn: It is cheerleading move.
Kathryn: All right, you get the next one.
Michael: So partners. When we talk about partnership, you're going to talk about formal partners, that are like you have a percentage of my company, we share actual, legal ownership of a company, we have, Kathryn and I-
Kathryn: We are in partnership.
Michael: Legal partnership, we have, in Rabbit Hole Hay, we're partners with Jason. We are owners in that. But that is important, and I think The Partnership Charter book is a phenomenal book for anybody to read who's stepping into that place. Because actually I want to talk about it two different ways. One is the formal partnership is super critical, and in The Partnership Charter, that book, he does a phenomenal job of articulating that every really, really, really successful company in America, that at least almost everyone, there might be some black swans, and some exceptions, was done with partners. Apple was done in a partnership, especially when it started. Microsoft was done in a partnership.
Michael: HP was done in a partnership. I mean, you go on and on and on, there were these partnerships that developed. His argument in the book is that actually nobody builds a business alone. It's done and if you want to go far. I love that saying, if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go with somebody.
Kathryn: Yeah, go together.
Michael: If you want to take a company far, fast you can burn out, fast you can get taken out at the knees, fast is great, but fast burns out too. When you're sprinting, no 100-yard dash sprinter is ever going to run two miles at that speed. It's just not going to happen. What do you want? You want longevity for your company and your organization? That's where partnerships, and many people understand that, but there's a lot of people, "I am never getting a partner." And I was one of those people. I will never have a partner because they're too messy, they're too complicated, they're too challenging, and quite frankly, I've heard way too many stories, they don't work out.
Michael: The other side of the partnership are the informal partnerships, the strategic alliances, if you will, in some people's language. For us, a couple of those are DigitalMarketer, and the ASK Method Company, and HubSpot, have been phenomenal in our growth over the last several years. HubSpot, when we became a partner, and helped us shift our mindset on the company, and it really began a new season of growth and skill development as we work with that software, and work with those folks out there in Boston, and that was really encouraging.
Michael: Then, DigitalMarketer, who is a training company. Most of you aren't going to know who these other companies are. Digital Marketing is a training company in the digital marketing space. They've done some phenomenal things, and they decided, as they were building training, because they were very good at it, and they thought they would start selling training, and become a training company, we needed some training for our staff, and for myself, and several years ago we sought them out and started using some of their material, and then they started a partner program for agencies. That was really big.
Michael: So we got in early on that, and the opportunity for relationships and experience, and people who are all younger than we are, but way more skilled and competent at digital marketing, we've learned a lot from them, and good business people. Ryan and Richard, who run that over there, Ryan is the CEO and partner, and Richard is COO and partner, and they're both smart guys, great character, men of faith, that we respect a lot and we really like them. I'm telling you what, there have been so many moments, as we've been a part of that organization, and then when I got asked to be on the advisory board, and that adventure in itself allowed for relationships.
Michael: See, this is what's going on. When you get into these partnerships, you build relationship, because you spend time with people. Then when you spend time with people, you get to build trust, which allows vulnerability, which allows honesty, which allows some really safe conversations about real stuff, and you get to share your thoughts and wisdom with somebody else, and help them be successful. But they get to share with you. I would say, with those folks over there, it's been amazing, it's been really helpful.
Michael: In the ASK Method folks, Ryan and Richard over there, another Richard.
Kathryn: Two Ryans, two Richards. It's a very [crosstalk 00:17:12].
Michael: By the way, anybody who thinks that they know a Richard, we're looking for our Richard to be a COO over here at Half a Bubble Out, and HaBO Village.
Kathryn: And apparently that has to be your name, because that's who we've seen is successful.
Michael: No matter what your name is, you're going to be called Richard. If you're okay with that, and you think you have the chops for that, let us know. Anyway, those guys have been amazing because what they really brought to the table in the beginning was helping us understand market research at a level that we never knew. It filled so many gaps in what we were doing for our clients, but it helped us understand and make decisions better with business. Richard has had so many successful businesses, and being able to have that relationship allows me to hang out with him periodically throughout the year, sit down, have a whiskey, and we're friends.
Kathryn: And he's from Yorkshire, so he really likes me a lot.
Michael: He does.
Kathryn: Because he's from-
Michael: I think that's the only reason he likes me, is because you're from Yorkshire.
Kathryn: I think it got you points at the beginning.
Michael: That was my in. But those were strategic partnerships. Here's what's key folks, we pay for all three of those.
Michael: Those are things where we've invested money. You want to realize that you don't get to clarity alone, and money creates speed, especially in business. For some of you, you know this, you understand it, but others, you're like, "I've never had much money. I can't afford consultants. I can't afford." There's always a level at which you can start to afford, whether it's basic coach once every six months, or once a month, or maybe it's counseling, because counselors are great help in a lot of things.
Michael: But Ryan Deiss says this a lot, and I've just always taken it from him, money buys speed. I know he didn't invent it, but you want to accelerate your speed of growth as a human being, you want to develop your speed of growth as a company, you need to learn stuff, and you need to acquire skills and knowledge. Paying for that is going to happen. That's what we do with the university, that's what we do with school, and even a book. You want to know what's in that book, you want to read that book, buy the book.
Kathryn: I think what's interesting too is that, I think I had an illusion early on that, you know, we're the marketing company, so our job is to learn all that stuff, and we're supposed to be able to do that by ourselves.
Michael: Yeah, you didn't like me spending money on some of those things at first.
Kathryn: I still sometimes don't. But, I'll just be honest. Let's just [inaudible 00:19:28] that up front, still not sure I like it all the time. But-
Michael: [crosstalk 00:19:32] you see it more as an investment, don't you?
Kathryn: Yeah. But the understanding that if we're going to learn, especially because there are so many things that we do that they don't do, but their niche is something we have to have our arms wrapped around, and owe it to our clients to have our staff trained really well. So that's an investment we get to make. But it does require a bit of humility to say, "You know what? We can't figure this stuff out on our own. There's not enough time in the world."
Michael: There's not enough time. One of the things that gets into that is even when we can do it, and we know it-
Kathryn: It's not the best investment of time.
Michael: ... it might not be the best investment. Because maybe we're not the best at it, and we know how to do it. That's real critical for all you leaders out there. Anybody in any kind of leadership position. You know, one of the pitfalls in leadership is that we think we're supposed to be the one. If we're not the best in the room, then where is our value? Sometimes you're not aware it's an arrogant thing, or a pride thing, you just think, "That's dumb, somebody else is better, so I have no value here, I need to go somewhere where I provide value, and I need to make space for this person over here." Not realizing that there's a lot of room for everybody to be really good in the room and to also share skills. "Yeah, I can do that. Why don't you do that this time?" Or whatever. That's hard for leaders.
Kathryn: It is. As we talk about, just in Passion and Provision, about the importance of having minimum competency across many areas, but realizing you can't be the expert at everything. So you do have to find people who are better at things than you are that you can have intelligent conversations with, and grow from, and grow with. So those, otherwise you're not going to get past yourself.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the goal here is, especially of today, is talking about the principle you don't get to clarity alone in business and in your leadership. And your leadership and your business is not just a professional life, it involves your personal life, because you take your personal life and your business life both places. I know that we want to have boundaries, and what are we talking about and things, but you're taking your personal self everywhere you go.
Kathryn: As it turns out, you don't get to leave you at home.
Michael: You don't get to just flip a switch and go, "I don't do with those here at work, and at home we can have that." No, it doesn't work. The people I've seen that try and do that, I've not been impressed with how well they segment, really segment their family life or their work life. So you've got to learn to bring that balance, and you've got to learn to figure out what that looks like, and clarity in your own emotional life, your mental life, those things you're thinking about, your strategies at your work, and in life, and then in the functional systems and everything else.
Michael: How do I get clarity so I know what to do? How do I go from being stuck to unstuck? You can get stuck in all these different areas. This is a magic wand in my opinion. You find good counsel, people who have informed decisions, informed thought processes on the subject you're looking for, somebody else can help you get to clarity when you're stuck, because you can't see through, you can't see the fog.
Kathryn: Honestly, the thing that prevents leaders from doing that is that since that, somehow again they feel threatened by the idea that somebody knows more than they do. You know, we're moving into that place, and growing, and learning, where you're, you know what, sometimes the people who are best at sorting you through things are people who are doing exactly what you're doing. It feels like, "Oh my gosh, I can't tell my competition I'm struggling here, what will they think of me?" Right? But the reality is they may have solved that problem, they may have already addressed that.
Kathryn: You know what? There are a lot of fish in the sea. So having a conversation that's real with somebody who is in the space as you, can sometimes be really, really freeing, and really enlightening.
Michael: Yeah, that's what happens with the association we are with DigitalMarketer is realizing it's a group of agencies. One of the mantras they've been trying to break down for the last three or four years when the agencies get together, and sometimes there's 200, or 300 of us in the room, is that we're not in competition with each other, there's so much business to go around that building relationships, supporting each other, and learning from each other is going to be the best solution.
Michael: And it's true. The things that I'm learning right now, because we have a group of people who like they're willing to share knowledge in a safe, appropriate way, so that we can learn, because they've actually experienced what it's like to be a marketing agency, and a digital agency, oh my goodness, it's huge.
Kathryn: Well, it's real powerful to be around people who aren't threatened by the possibility of helping you be successful. Right, so the idea that rising tide floats all boats-
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Kathryn: ... you know, kind of that idea that the more we're successful and help other people be successful, everybody wins. So, I love that. Okay, we're going to be winding down, but I'm going to say one more cheerleader.
Michael: Yeah, you're going to say one more cheerleader?
Kathryn: I've got one more cheerleader on my list and it matters.
Michael: Okay, go.
Kathryn: One of the privileges, sometimes, of walking in life is that you get to find really, really dear friends who are super smart people. So we have another couple in our lives, Laura and Greg, who are huge cheerleaders. Laura is my dearest friend, but she's also an incredibly good businesswoman, and she runs a nonprofit. So we started working together in a business relationship, and moved into a friendship. She and Greg have become some of our biggest cheerleaders. They speak life over us and into us on a regular basis when it comes to running the business, and believing in us, and believing in what we have to offer the world.
Kathryn: She's the person who maybe 10 years ago looked at Michael and I and said, "You guys don't charge enough." It was just kind of an enlightening, like she's doing a ton of business in other regions, and saying, "Okay, if I was to try and find you guys out there, they would cost this. So you guys need to amp it up." It was so freeing to have someone say, "What you bring has such value that you need to learn to charge a little bit more, because you're worth more than you're charging."
Michael: Which is such a problem for most people in business.
Kathryn: It's so rough.
Kathryn: It's just hard.
Michael: It's hard. So yeah, Laura and Greg have been phenomenal. There is, there's a lot of clarity that's happened. It's even better because we've been able to return the favor and we walk life together being able to be that reflection, or that person of outside perspective at different seasons of our life for each other. That's a big deal. For us at Half a Bubble Out, and HaBO Village, our goal, especially at HaBO Village, more than anything else is to make sure that we're doing whatever we can to help you be successful. We want to help other leaders be successful, and thriving, their businesses not only survive but thrive.
Michael: They not only have a peace of mind, but they have joy and they can appreciate and have a certain sense of fulfillment in owning a company, running a company-
Kathryn: And hope for the future.
Michael: ... and hope for the future, totally. Some people [inaudible 00:26:28] hope, and I don't understand that. Because I want hope for tomorrow, I want hope that this is going to be better, I want hope that this financial situations are going to improve, I want hope that the employees situations are going to improve, I want hope that we can achieve, now that everything is running on all eight cylinders, smoothly and purring, that we can actually cover some ground and accomplish some things, and make the world a better place in the midst of what we do.
Kathryn: Well, and in our partnership, it's kind of funny, because obviously you're one of my cheerleaders, and I'm one of yours, but the regular mantra in our house goes something like this, Michael, is there hope?
Michael: There's always hope.
Kathryn: The answer is there's always hope. So hope is a big deal. Right, and we have to remind each other in the hard times there's hope.
Michael: Yeah, because you get in a moment like-
Kathryn: This is not the end.
Michael: ... [crosstalk 00:27:13] is I'm so wrapped around the [inaudible 00:27:15] this thing-
Kathryn: I can't see the door.
Michael: Kathryn and I do that for each other, we try to never have a bad day on the same day, and most of the time that works.
Kathryn: It's a rule.
Michael: It's a rule. And we do our best to do that for other folks as they've done it for us. We stand on the shoulders of some giants in the areas of advisors, coaches, cheerleaders, and partners, we value them and we see them as part of the process of going through life, because community builds so much around us, and makes life richer and more enjoyable, and it makes businesses more profitable.
Kathryn: It does. So we want you to take a moment and think about who is your team? Who are your people? Who are your advisors, your coaches, your cheerleaders, your partners?
Michael: Some of them you pay for, and some of them you don't pay for.
Kathryn: And take a moment, just identify them. If you have them, take a moment and be grateful. Think about the ways that they've poured into your life, what they've done for you, and just be grateful. If you don't have them, start looking. Start identifying who in my realm can be somebody that I can develop a relationship with, that could become a trusted advisor, who could become ... you know, do I need a coach? Do I need to actually go pay for some leadership coaching?
Michael: Yeah, when you're not trying to get money from somebody, or something like that, building with people you sort of know, or have some kind of relationship, ask them to go to coffee. I mean, if you're saying, "How do I do this?" Say, "Would you please go to coffee? I see you as successful, or an expert, or competent in this area, and I really could use some of your input, your advice, your thoughts, because I'm trying to solve a couple of challenges. And if you wouldn't mind-"
Kathryn: Can I buy you coffee?
Michael: "... can I buy you coffee?"
Kathryn: Then, if you're trying to tap into something they're an expert at, then you might want to consider going from coffee to actually paying them.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Kathryn: As opposed to trying to get free advice all the time, because that doesn't bode well.
Michael: You know, yeah, you don't want to treat somebody like that into, "I got free consulting for my company." You don't want to do that. Most of us that are, I haven't met a person yet, when we're in business a while, we smell that like, it's amazing, and now all of a sudden you're taking advantage of me. There's a fine line, you need to figure it out and balance it. So, we want to encourage that. So when it comes down to it, today is all about you don't get to clarity alone. We want to just encourage you and say thank you at the same time to all those folks that have helped us get there along the way.
Kathryn: Yeah, we only mentioned about like a tenth of them it feels like, there's a lot more we could mention.
Michael: Yeah, there's tons and tons and tons. So, that's it for today, thank you so much for coming. Hit the like button, or the subscribe button in iTunes, we would really appreciate that. For all of us here at Half a Bubble Out, I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we just really appreciate your time. Thank you very much, and have a great week.