Michael: Hello everyone, and welcome to HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we are glad you're back. Thank you for joining us this week. Today, we're going to talk about how to develop trust in a post-trust world. Kathryn, why does this matter?
Kathryn: Why does it matter that people trust us?
Michael: Let's talk about, why does it matter if people trust us, why does it matter with post-trust world? We're going to talk about all these pieces today because this is a big deal, a really big deal.
Kathryn: So, first thing probably is, what do we mean by a post-trust world?
Michael: Yeah, let's define that.
Kathryn: Because the reality is that there is a major shift, and Michael, you'll explain this in a lot better detail than I can, but there's a major shift that happened where-
Michael: Oh, go on, stop.
Kathryn: Oh, go on. Where people no longer automatically trust vendors or commercials or, in fact people actually are pretty skeptical about the world that we live in and the promises that are being made to them and whether or not people are going to ever fulfill those promises. There's been this major shift in just how businesses are viewed. So talk to us a little bit more about what caused that shift and what the history is on that.
Michael: Well, I mean, we look back ... I think one of the best books that is out there on the subject for me is Speed of Trust. We talked about it a lot, we refer it to our clients. It's on our top five book list that we recommend. Everybody on the staff talks about it. When that came out, it came out before the great recession, but it became extremely popular. Steven M. R. Covey, the author, his dad's the one that wrote Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Steven M. R., he became really, really well-known and almost famous ... Well, basically famous, and he was being asked to speak all over the world at world business centers and trade groups and a lot of international events and stuff because the great recession was so catastrophic.
Michael: And one of the things that came out of that, that was just an observation was, really for over a year, somewhere around the 2008 era, there was the word trust, or inferring that trust was broken, on the front page of one of the major newspapers in the United States every day. I mean, what was happening was, you could always find, you could always peruse the major newspapers and you could find at least one if not more that said, "We have a major breach of trust. Can we trust our institutions any more? Can we trust the banks? Can we trust Wall Street? Can we trust the American economy?" Because it rippled not just the American, but the global economy. It rippled everywhere.
Kathryn: And part of that was the Enron scandal and [crosstalk 00:02:49] it was post-that?
Michael: Well, no. Actually, the great recession was post-the Enron scandal.
Kathryn: The Enron scandal certainly affected this though, in terms of the trust issue.
Michael: Absolutely. It was one of those large corporations that built into it. But it wasn't why we had the recession, right?
Michael: It was, the loan crisis is actually what caused it, and it's a whole nother podcast. It's very interesting, if anybody ever wants to hear about it, but I'm not sure any of our listeners really want to hear about it. If you do, send us an e-mail. Maybe we'll do a special one on that.
Michael: So, trust, what happened is, you had this era of, this period out of the great recession where trust in our public institutions had been eroding, and then it just kind of collapsed. Like the side of a mountain, it had been eroding and eroding and eroding with Enron and things like that, and then it fell apart. And with all the marketing and messages and false promises and everything else, what happened is we actually moved into what philosophers, sociologists, economists, many of them believe we moved into what is called the post-trust era, basically meaning, in the short ... I mean, I think you were doing a good job describing it, it's we don't give the benefit of the doubt to people any more. It's dangerous to, we don't think that's right, whether we're thinking about it consciously or not, and so, trust is so critical in this environment.
Michael: So, how do you build trust? Well, maybe we should ask the question, why should you build trust, and just talk about that. I think a lot of our listeners are going, "Well, duh. You've got to have trust." But one of the things I think I want to help in this discussion today is not only just continue to raise the discussion back up to the top, because it gets buried sometimes with everything else that we have to do, but also give you maybe some verbiage and some language on how to talk to folks in your organization or customers or anything else, because this applies across your leadership, across management and operations, across marketing and customers, customer relationships, bringing in new customers. This issue of trust touches everything, right? And one of the things that's critical, I think, in the trust component is making sure that it's not just a big fuzzy word, that we're defining it well and we're defining why it's important. And in business, it's a speed and money issue.
Kathryn: Yeah. If you have a relationship that is built on trust with a client, you get things done so much faster, and it costs less. And the reality is, I mean, if you think about how long it takes to a contract negotiation with somebody that you don't have trust with, it is a back and forth, it's forever, it's expensive. I mean, it is just hard to do. And yet, how many of you, how many of us have incredibly strong relationships with clients that we never had to do a formal contract with? There was just a sense of, "I trust you." Or, the contract was so, you know, like, "Here's a one page, this is what it's going to cost you. Great, sign on the dotted line." Because there was trust.
Kathryn: To be able to work from a position of trust with a client is so much more rewarding than to always be trying to prove yourself. If they don't trust you, it's a very hard place to work from.
Michael: Well, and I love one of the stories in the book Speed of Trust, because it talks about Berkshire Hathaway and they were doing a merger deal with somebody else. So you're talking hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions. And there was a deal being hammered out, and basically, because of the trust in the relationship, something that would have normally taken months and months for lawyers and teams and everything else was really hammered out between the two CEOs in basically 24 hours. The agreement was struck and made and everybody said yes and they shook hands and signed contracts. And it was like, "We don't need to hammer back and forth. There is a trust there." Berkshire Hathaway has a great history of doing their homework and knowing what they're investing in and not investing in.
Michael: So, it can happen at extremely large levels when trust is high, because think about the amount of money that was saved on lawyers and lost revenue. I mean, the amount of revenue that they started collecting once the deal was made would have been lost for six, nine, 12 months. And a deal like that should have taken a year, probably, in a lot of situations. Maybe longer. And that happened fast and saved tons of money, and then brought in probably more money.
Michael: And then when it happens at small levels, like for you and I and other folks like us with small businesses, wow, that's a big deal. That's a huge deal. Because it happens not only with customers, it happens with vendors, it happens with our employees, and it happens with business partners, because when you're sitting there going, "I'm not sure I trust you in this area," I may be double checking, I may be spending time that I could be spending on something else, looking, investigating, or maybe arguing. I mean, there's a bunch of different ways it could go. Which is important, because then we have to start talking about what it is. How do we define it?
Michael: So, as we wrap up this part, why do we need it? Well, high trust allows us to go fast, and it allows us to conserve money and resources. So, costs are down. When trust is slow or low, time, it takes longer to do things and it costs more, so the costs are higher. There is a huge need for trust, but how do we build it in a post-trust era?
Michael: One of the questions is, A, we have to be intentional. That's the first thing. We have to believe that trust is important and start going after it. And you and I, we have really spent a huge chunk of life really understanding this concept of trust and trying to dig in deeper and deeper, realizing that trust is a commodity that we all trade in. That's really a big deal.
Kathryn: Yeah, and I think one of the things ... I mean, without dissecting the book too much, one of the things that was so great about Covey's book is that we have this assumption that trust, once broken, can't be rebuilt.
Michael: Can't be rebuilt, yeah.
Kathryn: Right, like if you break someone's trust, that's the end of the deal.
Michael: It's like how there's all these myths about trust.
Kathryn: Right. And he lays out really clearly how, absolutely you can rebuild it, and here's some really very clear steps to rebuild it.
Kathryn: So, to live in a world where I am working with and working for and partnering with people who I believe, like, I have a confidence level that their intentions are good. I actually think that that person's intentions towards me are good. They're not taking advantage of me, they're not overcharging me, they're not delaying in ways that they could do differently. There's an incredible power in trust and in moving forward with a partner or organization that you feel confident with. The trust element is massive.
Michael: Okay, so let's dive in. One of the myths is trust is either, you have it or you don't. Another myth of trust is you can't rebuild it quickly. Sometimes there's a myth out there that says once trust is broken, you can never get it back. And one of the things, the idea that it can't be defined. It's like, well, you know you trust somebody when you trust somebody. You know it's broken when it's broken.
Kathryn: It's just a feeling, you just kind of know.
Michael: But let's break it down, because Covey does a good job with this. First of all, we have, trust is competence and character. There's some other authors out there that have decided to throw in caring, so competence, character, and caring. Covey puts the caring in under character, with intent, but it's, I think, a really easy way of saying really fast, those three things, that's what trust is.
Michael: Second, trust has five major areas. It starts with self-trust, then it goes to one-on-one trust, then it goes to a group trust and an organizational trust and a societal trust. You have those different realms, and when you're thinking about where trust needs to be built or where it's been broke or where it's strong, you can look at those places and go, okay, well ... A lot of times, you can feed it all the way back to the center of that circle, like a rock in the pond that has the ripples going out. It starts with self-trust, and do I have integrity with myself, when I say I'm going to do something or not do something. And then, that ripples quickly out to, when I tell other people I'm going to do something, am I committed to that.
Michael: Because when we get into trust, because we have this competence and character and we have those five areas, there's also 13 behaviors. I don't want to list out the 13 behaviors, and anybody who's listening, you've got to get this book. This is like a standard, read the first couple of chapters and keep it on your shelf as a resource. The rest of the book is worth reading. I've read it cover to cover, and I read a lot of books, the first two chapters and I get a lot of value out of it, and then I skip to the last chapter. A lot of books I skim them, a lot of them I keep as resources, but this one is really powerful, because as you start to think about it you go, "Okay, I want to be skilled at this so that I know how to assess when trust is broken quickly. I want to be strategic, tactical. I want to be able to be surgical when I'm looking at where is trust broken," and it may be broken in three or four places, and to be able to help folks around me, not just in my relationship but as a leader, how do I make sure that I am assessing the trust between my team members, my company and my employees, and my customers and all of that kind of stuff.
Michael: So that, we look at that, so those 13 behaviors help us to identify, because part of those are character issues, part of those are competence issues, and part of those are a combination. When we get into that, here's what character ... Character is not the character that easily is thought about in I'm honest and I have integrity and all that stuff. That's part of it, but think more about the character in a book or the character in a film. When you describe that character, you have all these character traits. There's the character traits that describe their, are they honest, are they consistent, are they funny, are they likable, because what happens in there is you start to find out the type of character somebody has is, there is that caring. They have your best interests at heart, they have an intent to do something that's trustworthy, and they have integrity. That floats in character.
Michael: Under competency, that's not as universal. Having an intent that I care about people and I have integrity, that's more of a universal type of trust, but there's a locational trust or a circumstantial trust, and that's on what you're doing, right?
Kathryn: Right. So it's the concept of, I might trust you as a human being in general but I do not trust you to drill a hole in my brain because you're not trained to be a brain surgeon and you have no competence in that area. Right?
Michael: Yeah. Right. You are a great businesswoman, and you are a phenomenal speaker and you're a phenomenal writer. I trust that when I give you a piece of copy to edit or an assignment to write on it, or a client gives it to us, that you're going to do a good job. There's a process that we go to and you look for second eyes and third sets of eyes, but you're really good at that.
Kathryn: Yeah, but don't ask me to fix your car.
Michael: And I do not. I absolutely do not.
Kathryn: Don't ask me to take anything apart. And please, please, don't ask me to put it back together, because I could probably take something apart, but I could never put it back together.
Michael: So the Rhodes ... My wife's maiden name is Rhodes, and when we speak about some of these goofiness things, I refer to her as Rhodes because the Rhodes have a bit of a family curse.
Kathryn: I hope my brother never listens to this.
Michael: Maybe it's not a family curse.
Michael: Oh, I hope he does, because it's true. [inaudible 00:14:42] you, your family. He knows it. There is a technological-
Kathryn: We're challenged.
Michael: Between you, your brother, and your father was, too. Oh my goodness.
Kathryn: The difference is that my father and my brother think they know what they're doing, and I just know that I don't.
Michael: Your brother might, at this point, actually know that he's secretly, that he's not doing as well as ...
Michael: Folks, there's a story. Okay, so I've got to tell this. I'm new to the family, I am a nerd in so many ways. I'm technologically fluent. I've built computers, done all that kind of stuff, right? Those are part of my things. That was in my 20s, and I was really good at this stuff. There was something going on at the family house, and I had my father-in-law and my brother-in-law who basically pushed me out of the way to fix, just a simple television, VCR, or something or other. They were so convinced they were going to do it. And they never fixed it. I just sat there, I'm like, "What is going on? These guys ..."
Kathryn: Somebody let me in.
Michael: This is awful. What kind of family have I joined? And then, I know ... Anyway, we all laugh about that.
Michael: There was a trust issue. Also, there was a trust there. They had high trust in themselves, but it was unwarranted. And they had low trust in me because I hadn't even been able to demonstrate my competence. The family believes I am competent now.
Michael: I've been married 26 years to you. But, it took a while to do that. That's the kind of thing, that's a really silly example of when trust happens, it does take a little bit of time to build because people want to know, and they need to see that what you say is congruent with what you do, and that you have a competency, and competency means minimum competency.
Michael: I don't want you to think about people as being either competent or incompetent. I don't think that's the best way to look at competency. I think the best way to look at competency is on a scale of 0 to 100. When, let's say 0 to 50 or 0 to 70, or whatever the number is depending on the subject, is that 70 or that ... Let's take 50. 50 is minimum competency. I need to have, if we're passing a grade, in everything else you need Cs. Let's say 70.
Kathryn: Let's say 70. I'm like, "50 is not minimum competency in the grading system. Nope."
Michael: In the grading system it's not. So, you need a C, not a D to pass. You need a C to get degrees is the old ...
Kathryn: Cs get degrees.
Michael: Cs get degrees. Right? FYI, if you're talking to any doctor and you're letting them cut around on you, are they a C doctor or an A doctor?
Kathryn: I really want A doctors.
Michael: I want A doctors as much as possible.
Michael: Okay, so, minimum competency is that 70% skill level. 100% is, I'm one of the masters in the arena. People seek me out, I am one of the best, if not the best, and I work on that and I work at that level. Mastery actually takes somewhere between 10 and 15 years of proactive weekly practicing and working intentionally.
Kathryn: Like Malcolm Gladwell said, what, 10,000 hours is mastery?
Michael: Well, and Malcolm Gladwell pulled it from some research. It turns out that mastery in different fields can vary in different years. But you have to be consciously working at it, because you could be at something for 20 or 30 years and [crosstalk 00:18:04].
Kathryn: And then not be a master.
Michael: Because there was a study done on doctors that actually, 20 years after they graduated from medical school, they were actually worse at diagnosing conditions. They had been practicing for 20 years, but they hadn't improved their skill. Their skill had actually gotten worse, due to laziness, lack of education, or whatever. That was kind of an average on doctors.
Kathryn: How wondrous.
Michael: Right? But what happens is, there's below average and there's above average folks. But that's the scenario. That's what we're talking about, okay, competence. When we talk about competence, we want to start saying, okay, there's this level of 0 to 100. There's 70 that, in this example we're using, that is minimum competency. And I believe you are incredibly competent and good at what you do if you were able to get Cs through medical school. That's not easy. Getting Cs in biochemistry, from what I hear, is like, super, super, super hard just to get a C, and then from there going on. And then some institutions are so hard that you're lucky, only a couple of people on the curve get an A out of amazing institutions. Harvard Medical School, things like that.
Michael: So, depending on where you are, you've got somebody between minimum competency and above competency. Now, let's take a painter or a dentist or somebody who's an accountant. Do you really need somebody who's a master at it? Do you really need somebody who's going to handle great complexity at great speed with great accuracy? That's a master. They make difficult things look super simple, and move through them with grace, and just like, "Wow, that was just easy," and then you try and repeat it and you're like, "Okay, I'm good at what I do, but it's going to take me another 10 or 20 years of hard practice to get to that kind of competency if I can."
Michael: That's what we're talking about in competency. That's an important deal, because what we really need in any of our positions in our company is to figure out what minimum competency is and hit that. Right?
Kathryn: Well, and I mean ... And you think about this, in a world where every other company says, "We're the best," or world famous ... How many world famous burger joints have you seen? And you're thinking-
Michael: A lot. And they're usually these dives.
Kathryn: Yeah. And you're like, "In what world?" I mean, it's a small world. And you begin to go, "What does that even mean?" So to say you're the best, I'm not sure I'm the best at anything. And yet, I'm really solid at a whole bunch of stuff. So there's that sense in, how are you defining your expertise in a way that communicates well but doesn't overpromise.
Michael: Right. In Half a Bubble Out, we are, I guess in some respects, world famous. People know us in Great Britain, and we have clients there. Not only family, but we have clients.
Kathryn: We do, yes.
Michael: When people search for marketing consultants in Hong Kong, we show up, because we got a client out of that.
Kathryn: We did. We're world famous, people. You are listening to world famous podcasters. It's just a very narrow world that we're famous in, right? It's like, you know ...
Michael: Yeah. As our friend Ryan Deiss says, who is way more famous than we are, he says, "I am really famous in a very narrow, narrow niche."
Michael: I love that about Ryan, because he's true. When we can find places where nobody knows him and we're just hanging out and having lunch or something and nobody's bugging him because nobody knows who this superstar is.
Michael: Okay, so, competency and character, and these 13 behaviors are the things you need to know. The bottom line is, you need to understand how to, if you're going to rebuild trust in a post-trust era, it's going to give you the ability to increase revenue, decrease costs, and it's going to give you significant advantages. And for a Passion and Provision company, it's not only going to give you ability to increase your financial success in your company and increase your provision that your company is providing, but it's also going to increase your fulfillment and passion, because it's just going to ... Like, look, we all know, when there's a high trust relationship, if you can learn to manage that and engineer those and work towards those, your stress, the things you have to worry about and the problems you have to clean up are much ... The stress goes down, and the problems that you have to clean up go down.
Kathryn: Yeah. The phone call from a client when something goes wrong, because stuff goes wrong, right?
Michael: Stuff goes wrong.
Kathryn: But the phone call from a client when something goes wrong, who is a client who trusts you, is very different from a phone call when something goes wrong and a client doesn't trust you. It's a different conversation, because one believes, A, that you've got this and you're going to fix it, and they know that you have their best intention at heart. The other just comes after you. We've experienced both, which is part of why we're so driven to be like, "We really need to be in trust relationships," because it is so, so painful to be at the other end of the phone call when something goes wrong and the client doesn't trust you.
Michael: Yeah. All right, Kathryn. So, why don't we actually kind of dive into, let's, five tactical things that you can do. How do we develop trust in a post-trust world? Because we can't just assume now, as we said, that there's any kind of automatic trust going into a relationship. We have to build trust. So, what happens when we break trust? Let's talk about five things we can do when we break trust.
Kathryn: So when something goes wrong, trust is broken, whatever caused that ... The very first thing you have to do is admit that something went wrong.
Michael: Something went wrong.
Kathryn: And own it. So, I have a lovely saying that I figure someday I'm going to write a book about. It's called own your crap. But it's that sense of, when you do something, part of what diffuses and almost automatically begins that process of rebuilding trust is when you just say, "I screwed up. I'm just going to own it. I screwed up." Because it takes so much pressure off the other person who knows you screwed up, and they're waiting for you to pretend you didn't or defend yourself or blame someone else. When you say, "I screwed up," and then the second thing is you say you're sorry and you mean it.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Kathryn: So, first thing is own your crap. Just flat-out, "I screwed up. This is what happened, and this is what went wrong, and that is my fault." And then the second thing is to be sorry and to mean it.
Michael: Yeah. So let's, real quick on the first one-
Kathryn: You bet.
Michael: The first one, well, why don't you run through these and then we'll come back and comment on them real quick.
Kathryn: Okay. So, number one, admit your fault. Number two, say you're sorry and mean it.
Michael: And mean it.
Kathryn: Number three, say what you're going to do to fix it.
Kathryn: Number four, do that. Implement the fix.
Kathryn: And then number five, wash, rinse, repeat.
Michael: Be consistent.
Kathryn: Keep doing that. Keep implementing whatever that fix is, so that whatever went wrong in the first place doesn't go wrong again.
Kathryn: Admit your fault, be sorry, articulate how you're going to fix it, implement the fix, and then repeat that.
Michael: And then there's a sixth that we're throwing in, a bonus there.
Kathryn: A bonus. Which is, keep open dialogue with the person that you're working to rebuild that trust with.
Michael: Yeah, communicating, going and saying, so that there is somehow a way of knowing, "I am working on this, and I'm trying." I'm not just saying I'm trying emotionally, but I'm actually doing something very specific that can be seen and observed.
Michael: Okay, let's go back. Number one, real quick. What was it again?
Kathryn: Admit fault. Say you're sorry. Own your crap.
Michael: Admit fault. So, that's super important, by just calling it what it is. There is a trust that happens, happens under character, but what you're all agreeing on is that what the two people see or the two groups see, or whatever, is the same thing. Like, okay, yeah. Because if you say it's black and I say it's white, I don't trust your perspective on it. We've got to come to an agreement. And if it's broke, it's broke, yes. And if you did it or your company did it, yes, own it, because the faster you do that, the faster you can start the trust rebuild process. The trust rebuild process actually hits a brick wall when people won't even admit that there was a problem or they did anything wrong. And we all know people who did that.
Michael: Number two, somehow what we talk about, competency, character, and caring is inherent in what we say in the character aspect. The caring is really a positive intent. What we say we want from people is that whole idea that you are sincere. Sincerity, authenticity. We want them to actually have a positive intent towards us.
Michael: And then the third one-
Kathryn: So the first one was admit your fault, second one was to be sorry and tell them you're sorry and mean it.
Michael: To mean you're sorry. There's that-
Kathryn: You said that caring part. And then the third is to articulate what you're going to do to fix it. So what are the steps?
Michael: Come up with that problem, solve something, and get to the place where, you know, if it's a little thing and a little trust is broke, just admitting it and like, "Okay, what do you need me to do to fix it?" If it's not obvious. Sometimes people go, "You know what? I just needed you to own it. I'm fine. You know what? We don't have time, it's no reason, it was a small thing. I don't mind."
Michael: But a lot of times, it's at least offering and then coming up with a solution that's going to do it, working it. Now, here's what happens. You're shifting from a character issue of saying, "I was wrong and I'm sorry," into a competence place of, "We're going to identify the problem," and then moving into four where you're actually fixing it, you're actually doing it. Identifying a problem that's satisfactory to them and then you're going to say, "I'm going to go fix this," and doing it. Because now you're demonstrating for people to see trust. You are being trustworthy again.
Michael: And that's how you build trust fast, because here's where trust is broken. Trust is broken often on the character side. It's rebuilt on the competent side, and what a lot of people that get stuck in that place where ... Have you ever heard anybody say, "I said I was sorry. Why don't you trust me?" It's because you said you were sorry, but then you keep going back and doing the same dumb thing. And you won't keep saying ... And every time it happens, you're like, "Well, I'm not saying I blew it," or you keep coming back and saying, "I sinned again, I goofed again, I cheated on you again. I'm sorry. I'm sorry." Like I'm sorry is the magic, the only thing that has to happen. It's only the beginning of the process.
Michael: So competency is where you regain trust fast. And if you've come through this process, you've hit this thing and you go, "Okay, now I'm going to implement it and I'm going to do it and I'm going to make sure it's observable. And I'm going to come back and I'm going to actually over communicate to these people so that they realize that because I'm communicating and I'm working on the problem, I'm giving them updates and I'm showing them things, that I actually care. I'm demonstrating care and I'm also making sure that there's a loop open, because what I'm saying is, I'm putting validity to I'm sorry and how can I fix this."
Kathryn: Yep. And let's keep talking about it, and let's make sure that you're seeing what you need to see.
Michael: And at some point, you rebuild trust again and you don't have to keep talking about it. But you have to keep that communication open. Because over communication in a company, Patrick Lencioni talks about it, it's absolutely critical. You have to over communicate things from your perspective so that it actually is communicated from other people's perspective and in this area of trust. So if you can understand these five things, then there's a lot more you could do if you want to get into the next level up of stuff, but these five things can really accelerate speed and allow you to understand it.
Michael: If you are hiring people or managing people, understanding how to coach them through trust and how to identify when there's a lack of trust, or somebody is not trustworthy because of their behaviors, those are important things to figure out and either you coach them through it or you coach them out, and you do it quick.
Kathryn: Yeah. Well, and this probably goes without saying as we kind of come towards the end of this podcast, but the reality is, as a leader, as somebody who's modeling for employees, you have to be able to do this.
Kathryn: You have to be able to own ... Because you're not going to do everything right. And when you don't do stuff right, you have to own it. You've got to model for them what it looks like to own it, be sorry, [crosstalk 00:30:48] fix it, and then have it not happen again.
Michael: Model from the top.
Kathryn: So that's just super important.
Michael: If you and your leadership are not demonstrating trustworthiness, you can't expect it from the rest of your organization. It's just not going to work. And without trust, it catches up with you. It might not be the end-all be-all that ruins your company, but it'll taint your company, and it definitely cause you more frustration and less profits. If you want to Passion and Provision business, an organization where you're seeing more profits, more financial success, more provision in your company. And then you're seeing more fulfillment, which leads to more passion in your company. You get that passion and provision, and trust is a key factor in that. And understanding this will make it that much easier to see those kind of fruits in your company, those positive fruits in your company.
Michael: So that's it for today on how to develop trust in a post-trust world. We love this topic, I hope you do too. Please pick up the book-
Kathryn: The Speed of Trust.
Michael: The Speed of Trust by Steven M. R. Covey. And please, if you are listening to us and you've liked what you heard, please hit the like button wherever you are, or the subscribe button, whether you're on iTunes or on our website at halfabubbleout.com, soon to be habovillage.com, we're looking forward to that.
Kathryn: We'll tell you more about that later.
Michael: We're looking forward to that. And we just want to thank you and say, we hope you have a great week, and we hope that your company is growing and your fulfillment in that work is growing too.
Michael: So, I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And thanks a lot. You guys take care.