Michael: Hello everyone and welcome to the HaBO Village podcast. I'm Michael Redman-
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this podcast is about helping leaders like you run businesses with more profit, more purpose, and more legacy. It's a process of conversation, because leadership is lonely. We found that along the way and as we work and consult with folks, we've realized how much it matters to be included in the conversation and feel like you're not alone as the leader.
Kathryn: Yeah. Definitely.
Michael: And today's topic, we're going to talk about competition, right?
Kathryn: Yeah. We're going to talk about what happens when competition starts cropping up all over the place and your mindset in responding to that, right? Because-
Kathryn: So, I want to start with talking about this.
Kathryn: When was the last time that you bought a car that you thought was unique, and then suddenly you started seeing that car everywhere. Right? The white Jeep.
Michael: That was very dramatic, the way you did that. There was a lot of pausing and everything else.
Kathryn: There was.
Kathryn: Suddenly the car is everywhere. There is a neurological brain thing happening there called the reticular activating system.
Michael: Activating system.
Kathryn: The RAS.
Michael: And when your RAS is stimulated, you start seeing what has been brought out to you. Basically it's like if I show up and I say, "Hey, white truck," and then you leave here and you see a white truck. And I say, "Yeah, there's white trucks everywhere." And you're like, "I don't see them," and then all of a sudden you start seeing them because it's important to you. When you get a car, it starts happening to you, right?
Kathryn: It does.
Michael: It happened when we bought our white Jeep.
Kathryn: Oh my gosh. I had no idea how many white Jeeps there were on the planet, let alone in our not that big a town. I mean, it was just white Jeeps everywhere.
Michael: And then it happened when we hit white Jeeps on ... Actually white Lexuses, when we bought your white Lexus.
Kathryn: Yeah, yep, it happened then too.
Michael: And when we bought my BMW, it didn't happen.
Kathryn: No, there's less of your BMW.
Michael: There's a lot less of my-
Kathryn: Your cute little-
Michael: Blue 325 CI convertible BMW from 2003.
Kathryn: Well, 2003. And the ones that are out there are not as in good of shape as yours, so then they just don't even compare.
Michael: Yeah. Right.
Kathryn: But that's beside the point.
Michael: Beside the point. Well, okay, so how does this apply to competition in business? When the RAS system is stimulated, what's going on?
Kathryn: Part of what happens is that, you have an idea, you have a thing that you want to do, a product you want to develop, a service you want to offer, and you think there's nobody else out there doing this. This is going to be amazing. And then the further you press into it, the harder you work, the more you get ready to move towards that, suddenly things start, they seem to crop up, like, "Oh my gosh, this person's basically selling the same thing. Oh no, this person has the exact same service. Oh my gosh, I'm not the first person who thought of this. Oh dear." Right?
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathryn: So that's that issue of realizing that there is going to be competition and sometimes you don't see the competition until you are pretty far into your own work on what it is that you're trying to produce.
Michael: Yeah, and competition's actually really important. It's really dangerous, we learned years ago, it's dangerous to go into a market that nobody else is in.
Kathryn: Yeah, first to market is hard.
Michael: Because you're telling customers ... Customers don't even perceive the value or the need, really. They don't see the, "I need this now." They don't see the challenge or the problem or anything like that, so you have to educate people that there is this whole new solution to a problem they didn't know they had and your solution is something they need, which they didn't know they needed because they've never had it before.
Kathryn: Right. And that's an expensive proposition, to be the first to market.
Michael: So the first thing is competition is really, really valuable. But it also is, one of the reasons it's valuable is because it costs less to get people aware of it, they're already looking for their own solutions and everything else. And there's enough people looking for solutions, and there's people who, amazingly enough, they'll buy two or three solutions to a problem often to see if they work, unless they're just exorbitant. You know, I need a place to live, I'm not going to buy two or three houses. Unless you have a lot of extra cash and you want to invest it and blah blah blah.
Kathryn: Unless you have a lot of cash to throw around.
Michael: But beside that, you've got this situation. Also, it kicks off fear.
Kathryn: It does.
Michael: Seeing competition kicks off a fear response. It's like, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen? They're going to find out that I'm not that good at this."
Kathryn: Right. So, I had this experience this past week, and I just ... Okay, so let me just tell you how it went for me. I follow, and I think most of our staff follows, Donald Miller. He's amazing. He's a great guy. Wrote a great book called Building a Story Brand.
Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's a good marketing book.
Kathryn: It's a great marketing book. We took our whole staff through it. I mean, it's a great model, and we really, really like it. And I really like him. So I get his video cast, which is Business Made Simple, it comes to my inbox every day and some days I watch it and some days I don't. I think it was Tuesday or Wednesday of this week, I watched his video cast, and Donald Miller is promoting a course that he has that's a four part course that sounds really similar to the things that we do, except that he adds "made simple" on the end of everything. Leadership made simple, marketing made simple. I think he has an emotional IQ, or whatever, made simple.
Kathryn: So he has all of these things that he's doing and I just had this moment of, like, abject insecurity. Like just, "Oh my gosh, why do we even bother doing what we're doing? He's better looking and smarter than I am," I mean, just all of those things. [inaudible 00:05:22] so much more experience and blah blah blah. And I just sort of had this little freak-out meltdown, quietly, all to myself in the conference room. Nobody else knew it was happening.
Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kathryn: So, have you ever had that happen to you?
Michael: Oh, no.
Kathryn: No, you're just confident and secure in all things, right, Michael?
Michael: All things. I never freak out, I never am afraid of anything, I never ... No, that's silliness. Of course I do. And I haven't met a leader yet who doesn't, when it's quiet and there's not a lot of people around and you're having a real conversation, doesn't reflect and go, "You know what? That's just part of the territory."
Michael: We all have moments where we freak out or we have a ... Defining how you freak out, or you're stressed, or your little fear, or you're thinking, "I'm stupid," or, "I'm in way over my head." Matter of fact, a lot of research has even says that every CEO believes at some point, every leader believes at some point they're in over their head.
Kathryn: Yeah. My brother would phrase it as ... My brother is a pastor of a significantly sized church. His fear of discovery is that someone's going to walk into his office at some point and say, "My God, you, here? Get back to McDonald's where you're qualified."
Michael: Yeah. And you know, you quiet those things because you've got to move on. If you're leading, you just lead. You go, "Okay, okay, I'm going to deal with this. I'm going to process, I'm still going to do what I'm doing. I'm still going to lead my company, my organization. I'm still going to move forward." It doesn't paralyze you, but, you know, there's moments when you're like, "Oh my goodness."
Michael: We've got a friend that, several years ago, I remember talking, he said, "I've been at this for 30 years. And everything I'm trying right now isn't working. I mean, all my solutions aren't working." I remember sitting in his living room one evening and he's just like, "It's just really hard for me right now, because I'm like, do I have what it takes?" And here's a guy who's been successful, still successful, still in the same position, still running and owning most of ... He runs a company and owns most of it. Large enough company that there are shareholders.
Michael: And watching that and just seeing those moments of ... We all struggle with it. Now, we don't struggle with it on a daily basis or we wouldn't be able to get anything done. But there is that moment of fear and you sit there and you go, "Okay, great, here's another competitor." Or, in one of our client's situations, all of a sudden an employee that was never in that industry was brought in, trained, poured into, got all of the wisdom, and then left-
Kathryn: And started their own thing.
Michael: And started their own thing. Another one went to the competitors and took all the information to a competitor, because the competitor promised a better deal or something like that.
Michael: And those things happen.
Kathryn: They do.
Michael: They're really hard though, because you're like, "Oh, crikey." And so there's this competition of, "Are they going to take my business? Are they going to take more of my business? Are we ever going to be successful in this new venture that we're-"
Kathryn: "Will they ever notice me because they're so much bigger?"
Kathryn: You know, all those kinds of things.
Michael: So those are some of the things I think that come out when you've got competition and realizing that it's there. How do you deal with that? What are some tips to actually handle it?
Kathryn: Well, I'm going to tell you what I did.
Kathryn: You know what I did, but I'm going to tell our listeners what I did.
Michael: Tell our audience what you did, yeah.
Kathryn: So, I composed myself and I wrote a letter to Donald Miller that I may ... Well, I don't think I'll ever send. I think in my fantasy world, I'm going to be able to read it to him on stage some day. But I wrote a letter, and it was just raw. I'm going to read most of it to you, because it's-
Michael: Oh, you are?
Kathryn: I think so. Is that okay with you?
Michael: Okay. No, I [crosstalk 00:08:47].
Kathryn: You know, it's kind of funny.
Michael: Yeah, no. I mean, if I say no now, I'm embarrassed because I'm shutting you down in front of everybody.
Kathryn: Right? You can't do that. That's not legal.
Michael: Oh, fine. Actually, I think it's a good idea. Go ahead.
Kathryn: All right. So here was my letter. Take a deep breath. It says this:
Kathryn: Dear Donald Miller. Thank you ever so much for today's video. I really needed to see you in all your glory offering incredible content for almost no money. Why should we even bother with HaBO Village? Why don't I just send people to you? Why bother finishing our book when people can just sign up for your stuff and buy your books? Why launch a course as a business who's helped a hundred companies grow, maybe, when you can claim you've helped thousands of companies grow? What can business leaders learn from Michael and I that they can't learn from you? Leadership made simple. Marketing made simple. Messaging made simple. And emotional IQ made simple, as in, the Enneagram made simple. And this last one you get by partnering with Ian Cron, who wrote the book on the Enneagram made simple, no fair.
Kathryn: Yeah. I would want it read with all this snark, okay? Which is why I can't send it to him, I have to read it to him.
Kathryn: So, today, your excellent work, and I do love your work, has forced a confrontation with my own fear and insecurity in nothing short of Technicolor. I feel a bit paralyzed. I feel like giving up. All while in the middle of writing a book called Fulfilled: The Passion and Provision Strategy for Building A Business with Profit, Purpose, and Legacy. Don't you love the timing? Yes, I actually do believe you are, quote, "more successful," than we are, and yes, I believe you're smarter than I am, though I don't know if you're smarter than Michael. Yes, you have a bigger platform, and you're in front of so many more people and you have lots more cash, probably, to throw at your ad campaigns and building your list. And yes, I think you're brilliant, and remember, I do love your stuff.
Kathryn: So I guess it's back to thank you. If I can't confront my own fear and insecurity, I will never survive the next few months. If I can't remember and celebrate what we've achieved and what we have to offer others, I will never believe in HaBO Village enough to live into it and to press on. If I can't get a handle on the underlying currents that shake me and remember that there are quite literally millions of business leaders who need help, and you aren't going to reach all of them, then I'll just have to walk away.
Kathryn: The truth is that I know. I know that, despite how I feel today, we will find our tribe. We will give them tools and strategies through our own lens of learning and through our own unique wisdom. And maybe, at some point, you'll see what we're doing and think, "Wow, I should send people to HaBO Village." So thank you. Thank you for the moment to struggle and for the freedom to wrestle through it on paper even though we both know I'll never send this to you. I bless you in your new launch. I celebrate with you the lives you will impact and the change that they will make that will help them grow. What a gift you're giving with your time and energy. What a legacy you will be leaving in your wake. You inspire me when I don't want to blow up your course.
Kathryn: Most sincerely, Kathryn Redman.
Michael: Well, there you go. There you go.
Kathryn: So, I wrote that and I'm going to tell you what. It just was so helpful for me.
Michael: Was it therapeutic?
Kathryn: It was so therapeutic. It was very cathartic. But what it did was it shifted me from this place of, like, "I don't even know what to do," to actually having to process on paper that how I'm feeling doesn't reflect truth. Right? That competition is good, and that somebody as brilliant as Donald Miller, who's doing what he's doing, is only going to actually help me. Right?
Michael: Yeah, right.
Kathryn: I might even buy his course. So, you know what? I just ... It was such a good process for me. And then, the other part was, it just made me laugh because I just got to write it out and then just laugh about it.
Michael: Yeah. Totally.
Kathryn: So that's how I handle it. How do you handle it?
Michael: That's a good question. I have several things running through my head. So, I handle it in a couple of different ways. I'm reminded of a quote from a book I was reading the other day. I'm reading Tony Robbins' book, Unshakeable, it's a finance book. For those of you who aren't Tony Robbins fans, the guy is actually really smart and cares a lot about people living fulfilled lives. I've had some different perspectives on him over the years, but I really like him and I think he's a really wise man who does a lot of cool stuff. He definitely gives back into the community, it's amazing. He works with poverty a lot.
Michael: Anyway, so it's a really good book, it's really well received, and his last finance book was really well received too. So I'm listening to this, and he did a lot of interviews with a lot of famous financial people, trying to uncover the, sift out the garbage from the helpful truth in America's financial investment world. One of the things that seems consistent with a lot of the big financial people is that you need to stay. If you jump out of the market when the thing's coming down, you start playing a game where you're timing the market. And this one financial investor who's very, very, very successful, at the billion dollar level, right ... So it's kind of hard to relate a little bit, but he freaks out too. He says, when the market starts to go into a panic state, when it's dropping, when it's a correction or something like that, or a bear market, and somebody said, "Well, what do you do?"
Michael: And he said, "I get alone, I pull out the books that talk about long term, the long play, the patience, and everything else, and I remind myself and my emotions of what's true and what I bought in."
Michael: It also reminds me of a coaching session I had recently with one of the leaders that I'm working with, because his desire was, "How do I continue to be okay emotionally with having a long play in my career when I see so many people going after the short play that are my age and accelerating past me in ways, like they've got a book deal or they're having these speaking deals and all of this kind of stuff."
Kathryn: We don't know anything about that, do we?
Michael: We don't know anything about that. And you know, our 38 year old friend who's a multi, multi, multi millionaire. So, the lessons ... What do I do? One of the things is, I remind myself of things like that quote from that book. I remind myself of other people's stories of when they made it or the degree to success they have in their life. And I remind myself that no matter how successful you are, the conversation going along at that level is, "Well, we plateaued at this level for a while, and I know there's lots of people who want this, but we're trying to figure out how to move to the next level and we can't figure it out."
Michael: And then they look at the people who are at the next level. So I remind myself that this process of competitors, of people who have been more successful than you, maybe in the same market or maybe in the same age bracket or maybe in the same ... There's a sense of competition at all those different levels.
Michael: And then I remind myself, I just want to bless them. When I get scared, I want to curse and say bad things-
Kathryn: You want to burn their course?
Michael: I want to burn their course. I feel like that scene at the beginning of Shrek, where they're all coming to burn the ... You know, with the pitchforks and everything else.
Kathryn: Yeah, get the beast, get the beast.
Michael: Get the beast.
Kathryn: Well, that was Beauty and the Beast, but okay. They did it in Shrek too.
Michael: Well, they thought Shrek was the beast, right? The giant troll, the ugly troll, and everything else.
Kathryn: They did, yes.
Michael: And I want to raise up a group of people and go burn them, and it's easy for me to talk smack against them.
Michael: And I have to remember, because I get into those modes, but I get into those modes when I'm scared. I get into those modes when I'm feeling insecure. Maybe it's not scared, maybe it's not fear, whatever emotion you're talking about. It's, look, leaders hate to say, "I'm scared." Or, "I wasn't scared, I wasn't angry, I wasn't ..."
Michael: Any time it's a real emotion associated with it, in coaching it happens all the time. "So, it sounds like you were angry."
Michael: "No, I wasn't angry."
Kathryn: No, mildly irritated, maybe.
Michael: 20 minutes later, you're able to back into-
Kathryn: "So, you were angry."
Michael: "So, you were angry," and they're like, "Okay, yeah, I was angry."
Kathryn: Okay, okay, fair.
Michael: Right? Because there's something about, "No, I wanted to be totally in control of my emotions. I wanted to be totally in control of everything, and they got the best of me."
Michael: You know, it sounds like I just ran around a rabbit trail, and for those of you who are going, "He just went on a rabbit trail," I want to point out, there are multiple things in there. First of all, remind yourself of other people's stories of how they deal with it. Two, get alone and get with information and content about other people who have gone before you and said, "The plan you are on is working."
Michael: Remind yourself that competition is good, and remind yourself that everybody's got a time frame and a journey and every market actually can hold and support multiple people doing it.
Kathryn: This is one of the things that we talk about even in our own community. There are enough fish in the sea. I happen to work out at the gym with the guy who owns one of our direct competitors in town. [crosstalk 00:17:40] Yeah, I do, and I have my own blog and things that I do. This morning, I walked in and said good morning and said something, there's a massive change at our gym, and so I announced, like, "Hey, first day of the change," and he just kind of smiled at me and he goes, "Well, you did just write a blog about change."
Kathryn: And it was like, "Oh my gosh, my friend, my competitor is paying attention to the stuff that we're doing," and I don't think he's paying attention in a negative way. I think he just is, like we're fans of each other. And there are enough fish in the sea. There are enough clients, and that whole ... You know, when I wrote this, my little spiel to Donald Miller, he's brilliant. So when it's all said and done, I want to celebrate him. And really, there is that sense of, yeah, his stuff highlights my insecurity because he's good. You know? And I want to be that good.
Kathryn: I want what we offer our friends to be something that is celebrated. So it's a good thing. And that moving into blessing, which is what I did in that last little bit even in my letter was to be able to say, "Yeah, I want you to succeed. Because the more you succeed, the more this industry succeeds." And when we're talking about wanting to build into Passion and Provision leaders and wanting to build Passion and Provision companies, anyone else who's in that and who really cares about people having fulfilled work and fulfilled lives, I want to say yes and amen to that. Because that's what we care about, and it doesn't have to happen because we made it happen.
Kathryn: Yeah, so blessing the competition is a big deal.
Michael: I mean, when it comes to this competition thing, it really digs into the whole, "What's my worth? What's my value? Where do I get my value from?" And it's real important to find a place in our careers as leaders, especially business leaders, to know, okay, how do we be hungry for the competition, how do we stay sharp ... Because I think competition is really good to keep us sharp.
Kathryn: Yeah. Absolutely.
Michael: It keeps us from getting lazy, it keeps us on our toes so that we're not like, "Okay, well, we've got to innovate. Oh well, we just lost that deal. Oh, why did we lose that deal? Oh."
Michael: I mean, as a perfect example, one of our clients thought early on, they had been in business since the '60s. They have been in business since the '60s, they're still in business. In the early aughts, when websites and everything else were taking off and the internet, everybody else was like, "Oh yeah, this is never going away," and there was so much business happening without the internet. People were still using, especially in more rural areas, people were still using Yellow Pages and different things like that, and they weren't updating their website. They had a website, but they weren't updating their website, and it was the first time ... We didn't do their first website or whatever we found at that time, and we had said, "We should do your website."
Kathryn: You really need a website.
Michael: And they didn't like that.
Kathryn: "Nah, no we don't."
Michael: "We don't need it, we're doing fine."
Michael: And then literally within a few weeks, the founder and the CEO of the company walked into the office, into the president's office, where we were, and said, "Okay."
Michael: It was our Friday morning meeting that we'd been having for 15, 16 years. He walked in and said, "Okay, we need a website. We just came from a meeting in the conference room where we just lost a significant deal that we were bidding on that we should have gotten, and it was all because of technology. They didn't believe we were technologically current, and their main reason was, look at your website."
Kathryn: Yup. Versus your competition's website.
Michael: And they didn't believe it. And all of a sudden, it was like, "We just lost a very lucrative contract because of that."
Michael: So all of a sudden it's like, "Whoa, yeah, okay there's a competitor out there. He's doing something or they're doing something. Kick it in, we've got to do this."
Michael: And so-
Kathryn: Yeah, there's a sharpness. I mean, you don't necessarily always want to do what the guy down the street's doing-
Kathryn: But there is a, "Hey, pay attention." Things are moving forward and you have to innovate and keep up, and the competition is part of what helps allure to that, right?
Michael: Yeah. This is the last story I'll tell on this one, because there was this young woman who was a graphic design ... She's actually a really good graphic designer. I like her work. She started her own marketing firm here in Chico, I don't know, a few years ago. And she came out of the gate, like, I had never heard of her and we lost a very small client that couldn't afford us and that went over there. But I don't, still ... The competitive part of me's like-
Kathryn: Loss is loss, man.
Michael: I lost a client.
Kathryn: I lost a client to this person. What? Who is this human?
Michael: So, "Oh no, we're going to have her work do our work and everything else," and, "Oh, she's fantastic," and two or three people were raving about her. She's amazing, and she's all that and a bag of chips, making her sound like she's been at this for 20 years and has all this experience. And she didn't, but she was good, and she was pulling in business. She was doing some innovative things, and doing workshops with really, really, really small companies to help them get branded, which was really cool. And she had the potential to really do the long haul and build quite an agency. And then it got quiet, and then I didn't notice it, but it made me a little, like, losing clients and, "Who is this new person in town?" And everything else.
Michael: And even though we have a national market and we have clients from all over the country, this is our hometown and blah blah blah.
Kathryn: Yeah, when someone fresh crops up, there's an immediate, like, "Oh no."
Michael: It's like the World Series, like everybody's losing on their home turf.
Kathryn: On their home turf.
Michael: And then I find out recently that's she's no longer in business doing graphic design because of the stress, because of it was pushing her in places to where she said, she probably said she had competence where she didn't have enough experience or competence. She didn't like the business as much. So, she came out of the gate, made a big fuss, did some really good work, realized she didn't want to be in this business. Didn't realize she didn't want to do the things that happen in this business. It conflicted with the lifestyle she wanted and other things she wanted to do. And so, she shifted completely out of that and-
Kathryn: Is doing something different.
Michael: Is doing ... She's entrepreneurial.
Michael: But, that competitiveness. I was nervous about it, and then it went away and I had to deal with, how worried am I? But one of the things we've said on this podcast before is, a lot of times in competition, realizing that perseverance and staying in business and just staying at it, you'll find your tribe, there's enough business out there for everybody usually, and from there, you also realize that it's amazing how many people don't have perseverance. We have waited out so many people in competition because it's like, "Oh, you guys are still here?" And they're not. And I've seen so many of those come up that look like serious competition that really, they're not going to be serious competition.
Michael: I started to realize, because we've been at this a long time, if you've been around for four, five, six years, and you're still competing and you're still marketing in that, that actually you might be doing something right, and you might be somebody that we really have to take note of. So I try and remind myself also that perseverance wins out a huge amount of the market. It filters out all of the wannabes or the people who just-
Kathryn: Flash in the pans.
Michael: Yeah. Like, "This was exciting, but I want to do something else," type of thing.
Kathryn: Yeah, definitely.
Michael: So, that's competition.
Kathryn: That's competition. And you know what? We are absolutely all about wanting to build our own tribe. We want a bunch of people who share in this Passion and Provision desire, who want to be a part of a community that is really encouraging you and-
Michael: And not tearing people down.
Kathryn: Yeah, to encourage you in your leadership, giving you the tools that you need to think through and grow through. So, we bless the competition, but if you want to be part of our tribe, we just would love it-
Michael: We would love it.
Kathryn: And love for you to share even what is that we're offering if you find it helpful.
Michael: There's a couple of ways to do that. One is, hit subscribe on the podcast on Apple Podcasts. We really would love it if you'd do that, that would be awesome. Second thing you can do if you want to hear more is go to habovillage.com. That's our website for this community, and our company Half A Bubble Out, this is our community and our training arm. Half A Bubble Out is our consulting, where we do services and consulting. HaBO Village, go there, check out the blog. You can stay connected with the podcast, you can stay connected with us. And then, the HaBO Village course, the Passion and Provision course is going to be opening up in January of 2000-
Michael: 20. Had to make sure I got that right.
Michael: 2020. And we're going to be opening up, really for the first major time. We did it once before, a year before the fire in northern California. We are doing a reboot for our leadership and for the founders launch. It's going to be great, it's going to be a discounted price for those of you to get in. And we're going to shape this community, really, so that it's really helpful for all of you and something that we can be a part of at a national and international level. I know we've got folks all over the world who are actually interested, and we're going to jump in and go, "Okay, let's build a community that encourages folks to find companies and build companies that are using the Passion and Provision strategy and are trying to find that fulfillment in running a company," because those of us that are business leaders, entrepreneurs, we are a unique breed, and we can get lonely and we also need to be encouraged and equipped on things that are aligned with our values.
Michael: So if you're part of our tribe and you believe in those things and you want to see more profit, purpose, and legacy in your company, get on the waiting list over there at habovillage.com and you'll be good. You'll start getting some e-mails that will be helpful and valuable, not a bunch of junk, and then we will be announcing that. You can get the announcement for the opening of that in January 2020.
Kathryn: Yeah. And tell friends, tell people that you think would benefit.
Michael: Yeah. And the book for Passion and Provision and this whole entire strategy will be coming out in spring/summer of 2020, and we're real excited about that. So, lots of stuff going on. Connect with us on LinkedIn, connect with us at HaBO Village, H-A-B-O, habovillage.com.
Kathryn: That's it.
Michael: And we would love to hear from you and hear comments and questions. Let's create the dialogue. All right? Take care. Thank you very much. I'm Michael Redman-
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: For HaBO Village podcast. Bye-bye.