Michael: Hello there, and welcome to HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this podcast is about helping leaders build passion and provision companies filled with passion and provision jobs so you can impact yourself, your family, your employees, and even their families as their kids watch to see what work is actually supposed to be and have a goal for the future, a dream for the future saying work is going to be an amazing thing. You can accomplish all of that through passion and provision. Welcome to the podcast. Today we're going to talk about niches and actually super niches and the power of them.
Kathryn: Random. Let's do it.
Michael: Random. Why is it random? We planned it.
Kathryn: Random to them maybe. Super niches, okay.
Michael: So, let's talk about super niches and let's define as we jump into this. What is a niche?
Kathryn: Yeah, what is a niche? Have you ever seen a cutout or a cubby that's in a wall? Maybe it holds a phone, maybe it was a little tiny shelf.
Michael: It's in old housing.
Kathryn: It's in old houses.
Michael: You see those really old houses, houses from the turn of the last century.
Kathryn: Yeah, so, you've got this big wall and you've got this tiny little cutout. It's a part of the wall, but it isn't the wall, and that is the technical definition of a niche. It's kind of this small piece, this small cutout in a larger wall or a building.
Michael: And in business you've heard the term niches all the time because what happens with niches is a niche in a business is a segment of a larger market. For example, we talk about things and we'll tell more of this story of podiatry. Podiatry is a market, and in a sense it's a niche or a specialty of medicine. And then there are people who are surgeons and there are people who do different types of things and specialize in different things in the feet. We had a client who actually specialized in minimally invasive surgery, that was a niche within podiatry and there was only so many doing that. And then you go on and on.
Michael: We'll talk about even a story about a super niche within podiatry later to give an example. These niches are, you may have heard the book Blue Ocean, It's that small area where there's enough business to actually make a living, to make some money, but there's not too much competition. It's like being a small fish in a smaller sized pond or a medium fish in a smaller pond. You go to that small pond like, "Oh, you're the big fish in this pond." But you're really not that big. You go out into the ocean and you're going to get swallowed up because you're a guppy.
Kathryn: But you're a large guppy in this tiny little pond.
Michael: And so what you're doing is you're looking. The power of niches, when we talk about them, is there's actually an ability for you to get in because a good niche is, like we said, it has enough people, it's not super competitive. So, you also have a chance to get in and make more ground faster and your margins can actually be higher in a niche also.
Kathryn: Let's back up a little bit more into this whole definition thing. Podiatry may or may not be something that helps for you, but if you've ever just been in a situation where you're encountering somebody and you say to them, "What do you do for a living?" And they tell you and your response is, "Huh?"
Michael: "I didn't know that was a thing."
Kathryn: "I did not know that was a thing." Right? Like, "What?"
Michael: Which we get that-
Kathryn: We get that a lot.
Michael: ... a lot.
Kathryn: We'll talk about that, but that's a niche. It's when somebody does something, they make a living at it, people pay them to do it and you're like, "What the heck. People pay you to what?"
Kathryn: That's a niche.
Michael: As my grandfather and my mother would say, "I've never heard."
Kathryn: "I've never seen such a thing."
Michael: Or heard of such a thing.
Kathryn: Or heard of such a thing. The reason for niches, again, is because it gives you more chance to get into the market, and sometimes at a lower cost. You have less competitors out the gate because people are like, "That can't even be a thing." You have more opportunity to grow, and then, again, you become that big fish in a small pond. So, here's the thing, when we got these marketing conferences, right?
Michael: These marketing conferences.
Kathryn: We have heard of some of the most bizarre ways that people make money. Did you know that there are online companies that make money painting wooden door hangers? So, you know a door hanger?
Michael: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn: You'd put one on at Christmas time maybe that's like a sled or something and it's painted. Do you know there are people who paint that stuff and sell it online and make a living all the time?
Michael: Well, and what's even crazier in that niche is there are people who decided that they would start a membership teaching people who do those things.
Kathryn: Yes, like there's enough people to teach that they're actually making a living teaching people how to do that.
Michael: That's really a niche.
Kathryn: That's a super niche.
Michael: It's strange that there's people painting the plaques or the door hangers or the seasonal things or designing them, but it's even stranger that there's enough of those people, more than one. We've met three people who do that.
Michael: And like, "You what?"
Kathryn: "You have a site doing what?"
Michael: "Okay, that's amazing."
Michael: And making a living doing that membership site.
Kathryn: I'm thinking, one of the questions to ask about niche-ing is how do you actually identify a niche, right? We think about the fairy tale about Goldilocks and the Three Bears, and that is a really cool fairy tale, Right?
Michael: That's a good point. Thank you. I'm glad you brought that up.
Kathryn: You know the fairy tale. You've got Goldilocks, she goes to this house and she's hungry. I'm trying to remember the order of events in Goldilocks.
Michael: Do you remember? So, Goldilocks, she's wondering in the woods. She's tired, she's cold, she's hungry, she comes upon this house. She walks in the house and the first thing she sees is there's a table with three bowls of porridge.
Kathryn: But nobody's home.
Michael: Nobody's home, so she walks in. There's a lot of great stories about how presumptuous this young child is, right?
Kathryn: Like, she just walks into a house.
Michael: Talk about entitlement. She walks in and she tries the different porridges and one is too hot and one is too cold and one is just right.
Kathryn: Just right.
Michael: And she gets tired and she goes up into the bedroom and she looks for a bed. She's like, "I'm going to take a nap." And she tries one and it's too hard.
Kathryn: And one is too soft.
Michael: Too soft. And one is just right.
Kathryn: And one is just right.
Michael: When you're thinking about this you think about this is a great way to say, "How do I identify a niche?" Well, you want to find that way of going, "This one's too busy, this one there's too much stuff going on and there's too much competition and the margins are too thin. And this one over here, oh, the margins are too fat. This is great, but there's almost nobody buying."
Kathryn: Nobody cares.
Michael: I'm going to fish all day and I might catch one little guppy and that's all. I'm done.
Kathryn: Nobody else is fishing here.
Michael: All right. There's a reason nobody's been fishing here. And then there's that middle ground that's like ... If you've ever been a fisherman, I grew up with my grandfather fishing, you're looking for a fishing hole that has enough fish in it that hasn't been fully discovered by a bunch of people and it's not over-fished.
Kathryn: Yeah, exactly. A niche is that just right place, right? It has enough people looking to solve the problem that you're trying to solve, and it's a big enough problem, it actually is important. It has very few competitors. It isn't commoditized yet. We talk about commoditization, and that's when there's so many people doing it that there's no way to differentiate. It's a commodity. And then oftentimes you end up having to just fight on price. Also, a market that has a stable or growing demand. Those are really key pieces of what a just right niche might look like. So, let's give a couple of examples, senior Redman.
Michael: That's a great idea. So, what's our first example?
Kathryn: The first one you started to elude to.
Kathryn: We came across this niche. We're a marketing agency, so we were doing stuff for people.
Michael: We were marketing.
Kathryn: We were marketing for people doing stuff.
Michael: As marketers do.
Kathryn: But in 2008 we got a call from a company that manufactured a laser that treated toenail fungus.
Michael: Toenail fungus.
Kathryn: Toenail fungus. If you've read our book, this is one of the first stories. You're going to know about this, but toenail fungus, this is weird.
Michael: This is a super niche.
Kathryn: This is a super niche.
Michael: Not just a niche, a super niche.
Kathryn: Yeah, a tiny little piece of the puzzle is this issue that people have called toenail fungus. When we first learned about this treatment, I didn't even know toenail fungus was a thing. I hadn't seen anything about it, I didn't understand it.
Michael: And yet it's a huge problem amongst people, but people don't want to talk about it.
Kathryn: Right, so it's real quiet.
Michael: And there really hasn't been much treatment, so to talk about it, it's like, "I've got ugly toenails and that's just it."
Kathryn: It's just the way it goes.
Michael: It's funny, I had seen in older people when I was a kid growing up, toenail fungus, but nobody called it that, they just called it, "They've got ugly toes."
Kathryn: They've got ugly toes.
Michael: Those ugly toes.
Kathryn: So, we get this call and they basically say, "Hey, could you maybe write a couple commercials for a doctor in Sacramento?" So, we did. We wrote a couple of commercials, we created a newspaper ad, and we helped him begin to market this new laser product. That was 2008 and all was going along and then we end up in this place where about three months later we get a call. We're on vacation.
Kathryn: We're in Lake Tahoe on vacation with our daughter and we get a call from this guy in Milwaukee and he's like, "Hey, I'm a doctor. I'm in Milwaukee and I'm doing this laser thing and I was just talking to this guy in Sacramento and he said that you guys helped him market. Could you help me market?" So, we're like, "Okay." So, we take all of his information and we built him an ad and we found radio stations in Milwaukee and we started running ads in Milwaukee.
Michael: And it was our first client ever outside of California.
Kathryn: Oh, it was big. It was big.
Michael: And a friend of ours said, "I think this is going to make you international." I'm like-
Kathryn: Yeah, whatever.
Michael: "From your mouth to God's ears."
Kathryn: That started this really interesting season for us. We talk about it as the 400% season. I can remember being in the office and literally the phone would ring and our receptionist would put it on hold and be like, "It's Indianapolis." And then the phone would ring, it's Seattle. And suddenly we're getting calls from doctors all over the country.
Michael: All over the place.
Kathryn: Because they're being trained by our guy in Sacramento and he's handing them my business card. So, this is an interesting opportunity. This is an interesting niche. We built a system, we started creating ads.
Michael: We became the go-to people around the country.
Kathryn: We became the go-to people.
Michael: And then we even ended up in London.
Kathryn: In London.
Michael: Taking care of a pediatrist or-
Kathryn: Chiropodist, as it [crosstalk 00:10:46].
Michael: And they bought a laser too. We actually went over there a couple of times to see Kathryn's mom and would see our client. As my mother would say, "It's a tax write-off."
Kathryn: Yeah, so we moved from doing one newspaper ad and one radio ad to start, to suddenly being in, I think at the top end we were in 20, 21 cities coast to coast plus the UK. It was an insane season.
Michael: It was, but this super niche, not only was it an interesting super niche for these doctors. Many of them, if they worked the plan and they had the resources to take advantage of the plan, they made, like our first doctor in Sacramento, well over $2 million in gross revenue when it was all said and done, and I don't know how much of it he held onto.
Kathryn: He's still going strong.
Michael: Which is a whole nother podcast in the world out there of entrepreneurs are really good at making money, they're not always good at holding onto money. We did this. It made a lot of money for them, but it was actually a niche marketing thing for us because amongst marketing people, A, it's a weird treatment, and then you're specializing in it. Doing specialization like that, finding super niches can really help your company grow and then you can expand out of them, we've seen this happen. We've seen it be harder to grow when you're not super niche-ing.
Michael: Our agency doesn't super niche. We don't walk around going, "We help podiatrists with toenail fungus." Or, "We just work with podiatrists." We work in three or four industries, but what we really work for is, and it's been harder, but we're still growing a healthy company, we work with people who want to build passion and provision companies that are really like, "I'm in this for a while. I love this. I like this philosophy." But it's taken us a really long time to find this philosophy and go, "If you don't care about a passion and provision company and you don't like the strategy and you're not willing to think longer term."
Kathryn: Or holistically.
Michael: "Or holistically, then you're definitely not part of us." But those are different niches and it's a different way of describing it than podiatry, toenail fungus, laser treatment. That's an example. That's our first big example-
Kathryn: That's one example.
Michael: ... of it.
Kathryn: By the way, there needs to be also a little bit of a warning because when you grow like that it can be hazardous to your health. It's kind of like the warning on a pack of cigarettes.
Michael: Absolutely. It's a clear warning we give everyone. Growing like that, and we state it in the book, that kind of growth can be extremely hazardous to your mental, emotional, and physical well being, so be careful. It's a hyper growth.
Kathryn: We learned some of our greatest lessons coming out of that season. Anyway, the second example we want to give you is actually a company that we've built in a super niche. You've heard us probably mention it, but this would be our little side gig called Rabbit Hole Hay.
Michael: Rabbit Hole Hay.
Kathryn: And our little side gig is growing to be a significant side gig along with our partner who's doing an incredible job. Here's this thing. We buy bales of hey and we break it apart by hand and we put it in boxes and we sell it to people.
Michael: We have pet rabbits.
Kathryn: We have pet rabbits, guinea pigs, and chinchillas.
Michael: And chinchillas.
Kathryn: So, here's one of those, if you don't know that's a thing you're like, "You do what?"
Michael: "That's a what? That's a thing?"
Kathryn: That's a, "Huh?" Turns out that when you have a rabbit or a guinea pig or a chinchilla there are certain types of hay that are really good for that rabbit during certain seasons and those grow in an area that is western United States in our world.
Michael: Extreme western like Idaho, Nevada, Seattle, California, northern California.
Kathryn: Seattle right in downtown.
Michael: Washington, Oregon, northern California, Idaho, northern Nevada. If there's kind of a 300 or 400 mile circle there the western Timothy Hay grows and it's a primary food for rabbits. It turns out that it's something that's been growing around where we live and we didn't know it. We knew about hay. We knew about alfalfa.
Kathryn: Hay is for horses, that's what I knew.
Michael: Right, but I didn't think that was a thing. And then on February 6th of 2012 I was working on a project for another client. I was up in the mountains doing an interview with our cameraman and met a guy who was a contractor in the great recession, lost his construction company doing spec homes in the Tahoe area, so high end homes, and they owned some farm that they actually just used because they liked living on a farm, and they made a little extra money every year selling their hay to people who had horses. It turns out that he figured out that he could also sell it for a higher premium online to people in cities who had pet rabbits, mainly pet rabbits. He wasn't even thinking about chinchillas and guinea pigs. It was small and everything else and as a marketer I wanted to bring him on as a client. He didn't want to change the company and they didn't want to grow it. They were happy with where it was. I just looked at it and went, "There's a whole lot more market out there."
Kathryn: There be lots of bunnies.
Michael: Lots of bunnies, there's not a lot of competition, which means in a market like that everybody can win and everybody can take advantage because there's enough fish in that fishing hole for all of us to go home full every day.
Kathryn: And they reproduce over and over again.
Michael: And they reproduce. And boy do they reproduce. So, we started doing the market research and we did all the things you're supposed to do when you're investigating a business opportunity. What kind of a niche is this? Is there enough people in it? Is there too much competition already in it?
Kathryn: Well, and the interesting thing is when you start researching a niche you go from this place of, "I did not know that was a thing." Like, "What are we talking about here?"
Michael: I mean, when I met the guy, I'm like, "That's a thing?"
Kathryn: So, you go from that to, the danger sometimes is you can start thinking that there's actually more in it than there might be because you start-
Michael: Oh, yeah, especially people like us or people like me like, "Oh, I'm going to be rich."
Kathryn: Well, no, I wasn't actually thinking that.
Michael: Oh, you weren't thinking that?
Michael: Oh, I think that.
Kathryn: Yeah, you do. I was thinking that as you do the research you begin to uncover people who are doing this and you begin to think that maybe it's not all that unique, so you shouldn't pursue it.
Michael: Oh, it's oversaturated.
Kathryn: It's oversaturated. And what that is, by the way, is you can find a super niche and then start looking at different folks who are sort of in that industry. It's kind of like when you buy a brand new red Jeep, right? You have been looking, you buy a red Jeep and you're like, "I've got the coolest red Jeep." And then suddenly you start seeing red Jeeps everywhere. You ever had that happen?
Michael: Well, yeah, we've done it more than once.
Kathryn: More than once. I wasn't asking you, I was asking the audience. But yes, I know you've had it happen. I had this with-
Michael: Wait, yes, I hear somebody out there is saying yes.
Kathryn: Yes, someone's nodding, right? Yeah, we bought a 2007 white SUV and I was like, "This is so cool. I am stunned how many 2007 Lexus 350/400 Hs. It's just ridiculous." What happens there is that there's this piece of your brain that's called the reticular activating system.
Michael: Yes, ma'am.
Kathryn: Your RAS.
Michael: Your RAS.
Kathryn: So that we can acronym things.
Michael: Your RAS gets stimulated and all of a sudden your RAS is telling you, "This is something that you're going to pay attention to, so I'm going to show you now." But before, it was irrelevant, so your brain just said, "That's irrelevant, so we're not going to highlight it." And it just kind of puts it into the background noise of life. A niche is one of those places, when you start seeing it your RAS is activated and you start noticing different things and noticing places. Two things happen with that, I think the first thing is what you were speaking to, was you can see the competition and you can feel like maybe now there's maybe too much competition. But there's ways to evaluate what's going on in that market. Is the market growing? Is there a trend? Is it stable? Is there enough volume?
Michael: The other thing that happens is you start to realize, "Oh, there are more people out there than I even knew." You start to realize the validity or the veracity of the market and you realize, "Oh, this is a thing." When we started looking at the numbers we were able to find numbers going back into the mid-90s where industry trade magazines and stuff were tracking in the veterinary world small pets, the growth of small pets, and within the small pet market, rabbits. It started, I think it went back to '93, '94, and by 2012 it had just been a regular steady increase in people who had pet rabbits in America. And then we started hearing stories. I woke up one morning and was listening to NPR, I know not all of you do. Don't judge me if you don't like NPR. I was listening to the national news and they were interviewing a woman in Michigan that was a congresswoman or a senator.
Michael: As a throwaway question at the end of this six minute interview or five minute interview was, she's single, and they were like, "Well, are you dating anybody? Is there anybody at home waiting for you?" And she mentions this person. She gives this name of this male, and then she says, "That's my rabbit. I have a pet rabbit." So, here's an educated woman, college degree, representing her state in Washington DC, and she has a rabbit that she takes back and forth between Michigan and DC and takes care of it and has had it, at that time had, had it for four years.
Kathryn: Previous to February 6th 2012 you probably wouldn't have even paid any attention to that comment. You're like, "What?"
Michael: Or, I'd heard it and I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And moved on.
Kathryn: So, this crazy little old niche of selling hay to rabbits is now a seven figure company.
Michael: It's a seven figure company and it has crossed from six to seven figures last year and it's going to cross into, it's not going to cross into eight figures, it's crossing probably the $2 million run rate within the next six months.
Kathryn: And we sell domestically, we're selling to nine countries internationally. It's just crazy.
Michael: It's a hot market, it's a growing market. We're distributed on large animal websites like Chewy.com.
Kathryn: Like Chewy.com and Amazon.
Michael: And you look at all these things and you're like, "There's places to compete." Even in the pet industry the pet industry has been really changing and growing because everybody would have said, "Another pet store company, there's no market for that." But when Chewy came on, in seven years they went from nothing, it was an idea that they started, they funded, and then seven years later they sold it for $3.5 billion. They said their gross revenue was $2.5 billion. They basically got 50% up, they made themselves an extra billion on top of gross revenue. Pretty amazing. I guess it was a one and a half X of gross revenue.
Michael: There are places where if you see an opportunity and you have the vision, you can yourself this place. What they did is they said, "We're going to be an online pet store, an online pet supplies store." And they killed it. And then PetSmart bought them to be part of that. So, that's rabbits, that's the second major super niche, and it's a super niche. It's a niche and a niche and a niche. In the veterinarian world, it's a small pet niche, and in the small pet niche it's a niche of ones that eat and want Timothy hay.
Michael: When you find these things sometimes you think you find a niche and it's not a niche. You have to do your research. You have to do some good investigation and everything else because one of the things you don't want to do, and this is the beauty of niches, is there's an old axiom I was taught years ago, actually by one of the guys I was mentoring. I had heard this somewhere, but Jeremy really reinforced it, and it was, "You don't want to be the first person in a market. You don't want to create a new market."
Michael: Most people who create new markets in history actually are not the people who take over the market, it's the second or third or fifth person that comes into the market that goes, "Ah, there is a market. You did all the work. You told the world that this was a thing, now they started realizing they could go get their needs met, and now I'm going to come in and do it better than you. I'm going to add efficiencies and I'm going to be better at marketing and I'm going to kill it." And most of the people do that, think of McDonald's. The hamburger stand market wasn't a new market, it was a very old market, well, "Old." As old as Socrates.
Kathryn: Probably not that old.
Michael: No, it's probably not that old. But they came in and that's what they did, they bought land, they used it as a land development and land purchasing process because Ray Croc said years later, "I'm not in the hamburger business, I'm in the real estate business. I use hamburgers to buy the real estate." But the marketing and everything else and built it out. You've got toenail fungus is a great example. The pet food and the rabbit industry is a great example, and they can produce significant amount of money. We're not talking about hundreds of millions of dollars. We're not even talking about tens of millions of dollars every year. It's not one of those kind of niches, but it's really nice for smaller companies and everything else. It's like, "I'm not shaking a stick at making seven figures, even if it's just over a million dollars a year gross revenue with some margins, that's not bad money, that's okay."
Michael: How many of those would you be willing to take if I just gave them to you? Those are the power of super niches. That's the thing that you really want to do. Let's review. Why don't you recap these for us, Kathryn?
Kathryn: Just to begin to wrap up, what we talked about today is we've introduced you to super niches, not just a niche, but an actual super niche, right?
Kathryn: We've defined it by saying it's part of a larger market, but it's a drill-down, a sliver of the larger market that often has a unique small group of people. Sometimes it's the, "Oh my gosh, I never knew that was a thing," kind of a thing. We talked about it being just right, so it's not too big, it doesn't have so many competitors that there's no way to get into it. It's not too small, which would mean there aren't enough people, there's not enough customers.
Michael: Just right.
Kathryn: It's just right. That's kind of how we talk about it. It has just the right amount of folks where you can get in, you have an opportunity to grow, you can become the big fish in a little pond, so to speak, and establish the foundation of a company so that you can begin to grow and effectively create profit, so niches are great ways to do that. We've described that to you. Part of the goal today really is to begin to alert your RAS, right? It's to have you start thinking a little bit and looking around and seeing within what you're already doing, within what you're already offering. Are there any niches or super niches that you could get into that would help accelerate your growth?
Michael: Yeah, the ability in this context is to really talk about niches because oftentimes they get used in business, but we don't talk about them with a clear enough definition. What is a niche and how do we observe it and see it? And how do we identify whether it's a good niche-
Kathryn: Yeah, how do we validate it?
Michael: ... or a bad niche in the midst of all of that? And then from there really understanding, "Okay, what are those nuances of how I identify it? Give me some examples." We walk through those examples of toenail fungus and the hay business for small pets and even talking about all kinds of different, there was a couple other things we talked about to go, "Okay, this is how we're describing it. Here are some ideas so you can go and look at another niche and have some clearer ideas on what that looks like." And, "Is it something that is profitable or not? Can you choose that? Will it work?" There are some great tools.
Michael: The tools aren't for this, but there are some tools that we've learned and acquired over time that allow us to actually look and see where we can find some of those niches. Ryan Levesque taught us. In his book Choose, he talks about some things. We work with Ryan and part of his mastermind. Ryan sends some cool stuff documenting some of these pieces and part of, "What does it look like and what can you do to actually find a new business idea?" He goes immediately without calling it a super niche, he's like, "Well, you've got to find it and it's got to be the right size." Using Google Trends is a great thing of comparing it and knowing where the sweet spot is.
Michael: Those are some things you could do in understanding what niches are because in this world today, if you are growing your business or looking at starting a business you're looking for, "Where's going to be a place where I can actually get some traction and get some movement quickly, even if it's in the first few years, but I can actually see myself getting an opportunity to thrive as opposed to just squeaking in and trying to take massive crumbs off the table where the margins are not very large?" Because once it goes beyond a super niche to a niche to just the overall market and it's commoditized, it becomes a place where it's very price sensitive and the margins get very thin because now the only way you're going to make money is on quantity or selling a lot, right?
Michael: This is super niches, the power of super niches. We wanted to share it today and share our experience and what has really been helpful for us in amazing things in growth spurts for Half a Bubble Out in the agency for startups that we've looked at, one of them being in that hay, small pet industry, and now start looking. We want to encourage you to start looking for places. Are there niches or super niches within your customer base that could be helped? Doing the same thing you do every day, but if you said, "Oh wow, we could do it for this tiny group of people," like we did with toenail fungus and podiatrists. They're like, "Oh, you know how to do this?" "Well, yeah. It's what we do for everybody, but we're going to tell you because you have a need, we can help you in this need." And then maybe you're looking for a new business, a new business opportunity, a new business idea, another great way of doing it.
Michael: If you have any questions, please go to the show notes page at Habovillage.com and put them there in the comments or even send an email to firstname.lastname@example.org. We would love to hear from you, hear your comments, what niches have you found that have been uniquely successful for you. We love to hear crazy stories about unique niches that you discovered.
Kathryn: Send us something where we're like, "I didn't know that was a thing."
Michael: "I didn't know that was a thing."
Kathryn: That would make me happy.
Michael: And then maybe we'll share that on the podcast too unless you're like, "No, don't. I don't want any more competitors."
Kathryn: "Don't tell anyone."
Michael: And then we really just want to say, "Hey, this is how you start to look at great ways to create passion and provision companies because when you find these great, solid, fundamental ways of making business, then you can decide which niche is good for you because this is a caveat, not every niche, not every business is good for every person and not every niche is good for you." You need to have some discretion and evaluate whether you're a good fit for that niche or is going into that niche just because there's money there, just because it's a niche or a super niche. You don't want to go after it unless it's going to be a good fit because it will drive you crazy and it will stress you out. You want to be able to make sure that it's that right fit and you have that potential for enjoyment, so you get to choose that in the beginning.
Michael: Big topic today, really fun, we love it. Thank you for listening. Thank you for joining us today on the HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we just wish you the best this week. Take care. We'll see you on the next episode.