Michael: Hello everybody, and welcome to the HaBo Village podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we are really glad to have you today. Today we've got a guest on the show, Kyle Gorman. This guy is fantastic. I'm going to let Kathryn tell you a little bit about him. We've known him for a little while, had some really good conversations already. So we're pretty pumped and excited because today we're going to talk about some HR stuff. Hold on. Don't turn off your radio. Don't turn off your podcast. Really this is good stuff. And we're bringing you stuff that's going to help you with your Passion and Provision company and growing in different areas, and we want to make growing your competency as painless as possible. I think you're going to enjoy it today. There's going to be some fun. Kathryn, tell everybody about Kyle and how awesome he is.
Kathryn: All right. Kyle, first thing I want to tell you about Kyle is he's got the best cheeks ever, so just look him up. He's like Santa in development, and he makes me happy.
Michael: That's right. He does.
Kathryn: But on a formal note, this is the formal bio with my editorial edit in because I can't help myself. Kyle has become an expert in employee management and talent acquisition through his experience in both the corporate environment and entrepreneurship. He's carefully studied the strengths, weaknesses, and techniques of leaders he's met from around the world to develop the fundamental principles he now shares with other industry leaders to help them develop high-performing teams. Super excited to talk to you about that. In 2013, Kyle founded the Employer Blueprint, which is a leadership and development company dedicated to providing coaching and resources. He's got a great podcast. And additionally, he owns Gorman Recruiting, which is a talent acquisition company in the financial services industry, focusing on insurance, wealth management, and real estate. So that is what Kyle is. Kyle's got a lot.
Michael: Kyle's got a lot.
Kathryn: He's bringing a lot to the table.
Michael: And for being 22, he's doing really well.
Kyle: I'm really proud of what I've accomplished in the last year and a half.
Kathryn: In 2013, when I was 12, I founded this thing. No, okay, he's not 22. So Kyle, welcome to the HaBo Village podcast. We're super excited to have a conversation with you. We had a great time being on your podcast a few weeks ago, and we're just very, very happy to be here.
Michael: So welcome.
Kyle: Thank you. Thank you. I truly do appreciate it. Love the opportunity to get a chance to talk to you two again and then also to be able to share with your audience and hopefully provide at least a nugget of knowledge that they can take back with them. And to your point, Michael, what I want to remind people of now, if you haven't turned us off yet once you heard HR, is what I want us always to do is remember how we put the human element back into human resources.
Kyle: And so our focus is not at all about sitting behind a desk and doing administrative stuff. It's really about keeping that human element in the relation side of the HR space in your business.
Michael: Well, and that fits really well for what we do and how we talk about things with our people, our listeners, our tribe.
Kathryn: Our tribe.
Michael: As you know, because when you're building a Passion and Provision Company for yourself, you're building Passion and Provision jobs. You're talking about human beings. And in a business, everybody needs to be efficient and effective, and the company needs to run well, hopefully like a well-oiled machine. But it's not just a bunch of parts. It's not just a bunch of cogs in the wheel. It's probably less like a machine and a well-oiled team, a football team, the 49ers back in the day of the past.
Kathryn: The Detroit Lions, never. Sorry. Yeah, so that idea of having a team where everyone on your team is actually living into their strengths and doing what they're gifted to do so that they bring their best contribution to the overall team. So I know we'll probably chat more about what it looks like to develop high-performing teams, but that's one of the things I'm really interested in, is how do you coach... Maybe we just start in. How do you coach your folks that you're working with in... So there's kind of two parts... they're hiring process and then working with the people around them to help them be more of what you would call a high-performing team?
Michael: Well, I've got a third question. Well, I'll just stack the questions here.
Kathryn: We'll just stack them [crosstalk 00:04:23]. We'll see how good your memory is. Yeah, start writing buddy.
Michael: First of all, when you take on a new client and you're working with folks and you're helping them find and develop, what's that philosophical perspective that you want to make sure that you have for them? How do you know that they're a good fit for you? And what is it that you want to impart to them and teach them? And before you start the process, then talk about finding, and then talk about developing. Does that sound like a decent order.
Kyle: Yeah, so let's talk about that first. And that's something that honestly I don't get asked a whole lot about. So it's interesting to talk about this. The first thing that we have to understand. Obviously, we're fairly selective. We own a small business, and we have to be selective about the clients that we take on. So you may hear me talk about values a lot. So one of the first things that I look at with a client is do our values align. Are they simply looking for we need a body to fill a position or we need somebody that just has 20 years of experience. We don't care kind of what they are or what they think? And if that's what a client is looking for, they're really not for us. We want a business client that is looking at investing in an employee, that recognizes this is a long-term relationship that they're trying to develop. We want to build that relationship with them. So some of the things that we do... And again, as an example, is someone is just simply looking at us as we're just another vendor that's providing a service, that's really not for us.
Kyle: So whenever we start working with a client, we go through a list of questions, sort of through a discovery process. And a lot of that is really understanding the culture of their business because not only does that help us understand the type of person we're going to help place, but also helps us understand if this is the type of client that we want to be working with. And then ongoing through the recruiting process, which in some cases could be as short as four or five weeks, in some cases it's five or six months, but we're meeting with them every couple of weeks just to have an update, to have a conversation to develop continued roots in that relationship. So up on the front end, we're kind of looking to see do our values align? Are we both recognizing and agreeing that this is a long-term investment in an employee, that you really are committed to this. And so we do that through this discovery process. And then kind of go into the-
Kathryn: Wait, wait. I just have to do a little shameless plug. I'm just thinking on those ones that you find that are not quite there, there's this great book called Fulfilled that helps them think through what it looks like to develop a values base. So just know that there's a resource that you could send them.
Kyle: Yeah, here's a little recommendation.
Kathryn: Yeah, exactly.
Kyle: Maybe you could take a look at this.
Kathryn: Exactly. And then come back when we're aligned.
Michael: That is shameless.
Kathryn: That was so shameless, wasn't it? I couldn't help it. [crosstalk 00:07:13]. He's like this is about me.
Michael: Slight that in there. As you were, my dear friend.
Kyle: No, no, you're exactly... And I agree. I think that the reason that it's important for people to be thinking through those things is because that's where the long-term success of your organization's going to come from. As you well know, right?
Kyle: This isn't a secret for you all, but maybe sometimes it's good for the audience to hear it from another voice.
Kyle: There is so much value in that long-term. Look, you can have short-term success by finding people with just great experience, but the long-term success is going to be having a set of values that you live by, that you operate by, bringing people into your organization that also align with those values and that you can invest in long-term to be part of that team, as you call it. I usually don't use a whole lot of sports analogies, but since you mentioned football, I'm going to, also on the side. So I'm a football coach, and we have a very successful program. I'm very, very proud of it. We've been to state twice in the last five years. [crosstalk 00:08:18].
Kathryn: Is this high school? College? High school?
Kyle: Middle school.
Kathryn: Middle school. Oh, cool.
Kyle: Yeah, so I coach at the middle school level-
Kyle: And have been for about 10 years now. And whenever you talk about that well-oiled machine, and we're looking at timing, and we're looking at things like this, the same holds true. So if we look at a football analogy, I can take people with a ton of talent and I can stick them on a football field, and they're going to be okay. But if I spend time investing in those young men, if I spend time with my quarterback and my receivers, but they're running routes over and over and over again, and they get to know each other, they know where that person's going to be. And my linemen understand what people behind them are doing and why it's so important that they make this decision. Well, that's an investment that they individually, people on my team, have to make in each other. That's an investment that I as a coach have to make in them to be sure that we're all on the same page and we understand each other and we relate.
Kyle: The exact same holds true in our business. We can take people with a ton of talent and just stick them in place. Or we can use this as an opportunity when we bring someone in the business to find someone that we can invest in, that we can spend time with, that we can help them understand the timing, the way we operate, the way we think, the way the others in the business think and operate. And by doing that, that's where the long-term success comes in because that creates a culture that continues down the line. So in a football program, middle school, I get two to three years with these young men. Well, you can't have long-term success with only two or three years with people unless you create a culture in that environment because you're going to have this constant rotation. It's the same thing with high school. It's the same thing with college. And nowadays it's the same thing in the pros. You only get these people for a little while. So you have to create this culture. And that happens in our business. We have to create an environment and a culture in which when someone new comes in, they're part of something bigger than themselves so that the people that have been there for a while are investing in them, and now they are part of this sort of well-oiled machine.
Kyle: So when we are hiring, we're looking for those same things we're looking for in a client. This is the way I put it, quite simply, just high-level, is anyone can match a job description to a resume. There's literally software out there today that can do that. It's very simply, very easy, click of a button, job description, resume, boom. The art of hiring is matching a personality to a company culture. And that is where the expertise and a good hiring manager and a good HR director and a good recruiter really comes in-
Kyle: Is understanding, identifying, and connecting with the culture of an organization and knowing what questions to ask, what things to look for to find the personality that's going to match in that because the reality is I can take someone with very little experience in an industry, but if they have the right personality to fit into that culture, within months I can get them up to speed. But if I take someone with a ton of experience, but the wrong personality, it's the opposite. Within months, we regret hiring them, and everybody wants them to leave. So we're better always to [inaudible 00:11:28] industry, but have the personality to fit with an organization.
Kathryn: Yeah, that's really cool.
Michael: I like it. Okay, so a couple of different things. I definitely want to talk about a couple of real tactical tips on how you do this. But I'm thinking right off the bat, A... Well, I've got three questions. That was one of them. Second is how do I find and hire and know if they're a good recruiting company? And I know a few, and we've used a few for a couple of our companies.
Kathryn: Yeah, it's pretty hit and miss.
Michael: It is hit and miss, [crosstalk 00:12:00] and it's like okay. And when you're in a smaller town... We're in a town of 120,000 people. It's not a huge metropolis. And then the other part is... And I've love for you to speak to this one first. Why do we not want to have rotation? I mean, one of the statistics or the facts out there is that it costs a lot of money to hire a new employee and bring them up. What are the latest stats and data on that? Do you have that or know any of that?
Kyle: The numbers vary, y'all. I've seen everything from 30% to 200% of annual income if someone doesn't work out or doesn't work well. Here's what I want you to think about, especially larger companies have a better grasp on this because they have entire departments that do analytics and work out all these numbers. Smaller businesses, we sometimes don't think about it. But here's what I want you to think about. Okay, let's take an entry-level position in our company. Okay, so I'm just going to use as an example we run an insurance agency. In my insurance agency, I have four or five producers. I have six or seven account managers. And then I have somebody $12 an hour front desk answering calls and things like this. Well, I need to hire that new front desk person. And so it's my cousin's friend's niece's college roommate, and somebody says, "Oh, they're really nice. You should hire them." Yeah, that's fine. All they're doing is answering phones. All they're doing is answering phones. How bad can that be?
Kyle: Well, it's not the $12 an hour you're paying them. It's the bad experience that one person has whenever they call in and the phone doesn't get answered and you lose that business because they go somewhere else. It's the experience that someone has when they call in and the person on the other line was having a bad day and took that out on a customer, was a little bit rude or short with them. It's when they don't know even where to direct them or how to follow up or to remind someone to call them back. Those experiences have an exponential impact on the business that we may never see recognized or know. And so it's not about the $12 an hour that you're paying them. It's the impact. It's the ripple effect they have on the business because you didn't have the right person in even the most basic function of the organization.
Kyle: Now, you take that and you put it across a position in which they are very client interacting. Maybe it's a B2B business. And that business, that sales person has poor interactions, poor customer service. That word's going to spread, and you as the business owner may never know it because chances are you don't have people around you that are going to be honest enough with you to tell you this person is bad in your business. Instead they're going to go tell everybody else this business is not the type of company I want to be working with. And so that's why. As a small business owner, it's easy to sit here and think well, it's not going to cost me $60,000. This is just a basic position. Forget about that. Think about how much business you can afford to lose because of a poor interaction with an employee. That's the way to think about it. And if you can't afford to lose 10% of your business, then you need to be thinking about every single position that's in your organization. That's a better way, I think, to quantify the cost that's associated with every person on your team. It's just think about the ripple effect that that's going to have on your business because of poor customer service, poor interactions.
Kathryn: Yeah, one of our favorite quotes is Peter Drucker, who said, "Marketing is the entire business seen from the customer's point of view."
Kyle: That's right.
Kathryn: So even as we work with companies, we're constantly like okay, you want us to make promises, but if you can't keep those promises... If I say you're friendly and warm and wonderful and then somebody answers the phone is like what, then that's-
Kathryn: Not going to work.
Kyle: That's exactly right.
Kathryn: So yeah, it's a really great way to think about it.
Kyle: And you think about that, if you look at your business and you're looking at your financials and you're saying I have $400,000 in salaries and commissions that are going out, this one position only makes up $25,000 of that, it's a minor piece of the pie whenever you look at the big picture, but that one person can have such a tremendous impact because even if your sales people are tremendous, they're excellent, they're friendly, they're kind, to your point, that person, whenever they answer the phone, they are the face and voice of your organization in that moment. When someone walks through the door, they are the face and voice of that organization in that moment. And so it's no longer about that person at the front desk wasn't friendly. It's that company isn't friendly. That's it. And so every person that has interaction with anyone else outside of the organization is in fact the face and voice of your organization in that moment. And they represent you at all times. So we really have to be careful about putting people in place just simply because we need somebody to fill a hole or fill a gap in the organization.
Kyle: And so, Michael, that's why it's so important. We can look at numbers and say it costs 30%, it costs 200, it doesn't matter because it's hard for us understand that. Just simply think about what is a negative interaction going to cost me? And that's how you can start to quantify some of those numbers.
Michael: Well, and when you're holding people and when you're going from how do I pick the right person and wanting to make sure they're in the right slot to how do I keep good people, those costs of replacing somebody start to become more relevant because all of a sudden... I totally agree. You want to look at all of those things you said, but at some point, it's amazing how small companies and leaders of small companies go, and even medium-size companies, they go it doesn't really matter that there's a cost to turn over. I mean, nobody can really quantify it. Nobody really knows, and it can't be that much. And the fact is everything from trying to slot that new person into your culture and get them engaged quickly to when you have somebody who's awesome, trying to keep them. I mean, we have a pretty high record of holding people here, but we've had people who had moved on to greater opportunities with larger companies, all of them because larger companies oftentimes can do more.
Kyle: That's right. That's right.
Michael: And you want to bless them and just say, "Hey, this sucks. I don't want you to leave. I get it." But that idea of why would I... If somebody is on the fence, sort of like, "Okay, I've argued with enough people lately that I'm kind of going from I don't give a darn to okay, if somebody will give me a good reason to care about why I should treat people better and build that team better and everything else to hold onto a good person longer as opposed to I can just go out and get another one," give me a good reason to push that person to the next place. Actually they might start caring in the next hire that they do.
Kyle: Yeah, so let me give you a couple of things here. One of them is if you have any selflessness at all in you, which as a leader, you should-
Kyle: Think about the impact to the other people on the team, okay? And I'll give you a great example where I saw this actually take place with a client of mine a couple of years ago. They reached out because they said, "Hey, we've been trying for a year to fill this." It was a supervisory role. They said, "We've been trying for a year to fill this position. We've been struggling with it, haven't had any luck. Fortunately, we've have two supervisors technically when we're fully staffed. Our other supervisor is incredible. She's wonderful. She's amazing. She's been with us 15 years. She's what's been able to hold this whole thing together. But we've really struggled to get this other supervisor position filled. We need your help." So we went out, and in about four weeks we were able to get that position filled. Well, as soon as the position's filled, literally within a week and a half, the supervisor that had been there for 15 years put in her two-week notice. And she told them, she said, "Going the last year with me as the only supervisor has just burned me out. The stress level has been too high. I've been dealing with all these things, but I didn't want to leave you without someone."So she was loyal enough to stick with them through the hard time, but as soon as she saw the escape opportunity, she took it.
Kyle: And so as a leader, one of the things that you need to be thinking about is what's the impact to the rest of my team. So again, I'm going to use a frontline entry-level position in an organization, front receptionist, okay? Well, you go through a lot of turnover with that receptionist. Somebody's filling in. Somebody's got to take those phone calls. Now you're overpaying a sales person to take phone calls. Now you're taking a sales person out of how they really earn a living, which is going out and selling, to take phone calls. Now you are getting them frustrated because they're saying, "You're not using me to my capacity. You don't respect and appreciate what I bring to the organization." And so all of these things, again, it's this ripple effect. So that's one reason. Let's take from a selfless approach. That's one reason. What's the-
Michael: [crosstalk 00:21:01]. I like it.
Kyle: We all have a selfish strain in our DNA. So now I'm going to give you the selfish reason why. How many of us got into business, started a business, run a business, own a business because we want to be shackled to that business 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?
Kathryn: Definitely. That's exactly why we did it. I was like, "Dude, I want to do nothing but work, and I want make sure that-
Michael: Nailed it.
Kyle: Nothing but work.
Michael: All the time-
Kathryn: [crosstalk 00:21:28] and I have to pick up all of the slack. That's exactly how-
Kyle: That's right.
Kathryn: Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted.
Michael: That's how we've lasted this long in marriage.
Kyle: That's why it works well, but yeah, Michael takes time off, yeah.
Kathryn: And I'm picking up all the slack. Yep, now we got it.
Michael: I'm very happy.
Kyle: So we all go into this thinking that there's going to be more freedom in it. There's this sort of pipe dream of business ownership that I'm going to take three months' vacation every year, and I'm going to go where I want to go, do what I want to do. Then we get in and realize I have less vacay, I have less time, I have less. And so we don't go into business with that mindset. That's not why we want to be here. So let's look at it selfishly. One of the things that I talk a lot about is being shackled to our business. When we develop a high-performing team, it gives us freedom. It gives us freedom, and it allows us to no longer be shackled to the business. So selfishly, the reason I want high performers around me is so that when I go on vacation for a week, maybe two weeks... Think about that. What if you go on vacation for two weeks-
Kathryn: Yeah, we just did.
Kyle: Never miss a beat, company keeps making money, everything runs smooth, in fact sometimes better, everybody's fine. That's why your next hire matters, because you don't want to be doing that long-term. And so no matter what the position, as entry-level as it may be, as senior-level as it may be, you want the right people in those positions so that you don't have to worry about them, and you can enjoy the freedoms that were part of the reason you decided to start a business in the first place.
Kathryn: Amen. Hallelujah. Preach it. Yeah, we might've written something like that.
Michael: That's good. That's a good word though.
Kathryn: That is exactly true.
Michael: And it's incredibly powerful. Okay, how are we doing? Oh man, we're just cruising through time here. Okay, then the question that is being begged by some of our listeners at this very moment is, "Okay, fine. How? How do I actually do that better? How do I find somebody to help me? And maybe I can't find somebody to help me." So I've kind of got those two things. How do I do it if I want to do it myself or our team's going to do it? And how do we improve what we're doing? And then maybe how do I find somebody... How do I know when I actually should hire somebody?
Kathryn: To help you hire.
Michael: To help me hire as opposed to run my business, yeah.
Kyle: Right, right. So one of the things that I would say if you're trying to determine if you need to be kind of outsourcing this, if you need to work with a recruiter, if you need to work with someone else, is just simply is this a skill that you realize you do or do not have? Is this is a strength or weakness of yours? Most people in a business leadership perspective, this is not their strength. They're great tactically in the business. They're great in the industry. They're great with people. They're great in all these things. But dealing with the hiring process is a distraction from what they're really great at doing. So if that's the case, look to an expert outside. The other is if you're so busy that this is going to take you even longer to do... So looking at the statistics of it, it takes 50% the amount of time to fill a position with a recruiter than without a recruiter. So just simply looking at it from that perspective, if you're filling a position and it's going to take you three months, but you could get that position filled in a month and a half working with someone outside, what was the financial impact and benefit to your business, to your team, to yourself by getting that position filled faster?
Kyle: As you are looking at someone to help you, what I would encourage you to do is just do the things that I had talked about, finding someone that kind of our values match, that we're aligned in how we operate and what we do. Find someone in that arena. So first you may look at people that are experts in your particular industry. But I think even more important than that, honestly, is do you mesh well with the people you're going to be working with? So you really want to partner with someone that you're going to be outsourcing to. And if you're going to partner, then it needs to be a true partnership. It needs to be a situation in which you enjoy talking to them, working with them, and you truly feel like they have your best interest in mind. So don't be afraid to have three or four conversations with them. Don't make it just a one-time sales call and they convince you to sign a contract. Have three or four conversations with them. Understand who they are, the way that they think. Understand how they've helped businesses like yours.
Kyle: And that doesn't mean they have to be in your industry. It just simply means [inaudible 00:25:49] that we're in. This is the community that we're in. Do you have anyone that you work with similar to that? How is that going to relate well to me? And so you just want to make sure that you're aligned. Effectively what you are doing is you're taking less time to hire someone to then go out and hire for you, so you need to be treating it as though you're hiring someone. You need to be talking to them, interviewing them a little bit and just having those conversations to say I enjoy this. And I'll tell you something really interesting. When we expanded nationally, that was by accident because I'm in the mid-west, and we kind of focused on our geographic area. And [inaudible 00:26:27] called because of an affiliation with an organization. They called me from New Jersey, and it was actually their business consultant that called and said, "Hey, we found you because of this affiliation," blah, blah, blah. "We want to talk to you about this." And I just told them straight up, I said, "Probably not the right person for you. We kind of do business in our geographic region, but let me see if I can help you understand what you're looking for."
Kyle: Well, so as we continued to talk and we built a bit of a relationship, he said, "Honestly, you are what we're looking for as far as the type of person, the type of company, because we want someone that's a little more niche. We don't want a huge organization. We want an owner that's engaged and involved," yada, yada.
Michael: Yada, yada.
Kathryn: yada, yada.
Kyle: So I again iterated, I was like, "Again, we aren't really for you because we don't do business in New Jersey." But ultimately through the course of conversation, I basically said, "Look, we can do it, but this is how it's going to look." We're going to have to do things remote, and we'll do phone calls." And that's when we started incorporating... This was about four years ago. It's when we started incorporating video, interviews and videoconferencing. But the point simply being this. Even if you are in a small market... I have clients that are in towns of less than 2,000 people, and then I have clients in Atlanta and Boston and Chicago. It doesn't matter. If the person you're working with has the capability to work with people in your community, in your region, don't worry about where they are geographically. Focus on someone that works well with you, someone that you can relate to and that you can work well with because even in one hire, it could be a multi-month relationship. You want someone that you work well with, not someone that you want to avoid when that phone call comes in.
Kyle: And hopefully if that goes well, it's a multi-year relationship. And again, you want someone that you can continue to work with and you know is going to support you. So those are some things that I would be thinking about. If I'm looking for someone to help me, make sure that you find someone that matches your values, that you enjoy communicating with, that you really feel like is there to help you and put your best interest at heart and not just simply hey, this is another job to put up on the board. This helps my commission. That's not the way to go about it. Find a relationship that you can work well with.
Kathryn: Okay, I have one more line of questioning before we come in for landing.
Michael: Oh man. This has been good.
Kathryn: I know right? This is so fun, most fun conversation about HR ever, she said.
Michael: Yeah, that's right.
Kathryn: So this is my question. So you obviously have the recruiting company, but then you also coach leaders of businesses in your other part of your world. And so my question to you is so we have a team. How do you coach your leaders to help their team become higher performers?
Michael: Well, that's the next podcast.
Kyle: You said this is a three-hour podcast, right?
Kathryn: Right. Well, we could always do another one. We could do one just on that. But give me like three tidbits.
Kyle: Yeah, I'll give you the high-level version.
Michael: And we can go long. Our people are used to listening to us sometimes go on a while. So we're good.
Kyle: All right. Well, let me give you the cliff notes here. So there are four key things, and obviously it breaks down beyond that. But there's four key things. So whenever I'm talking to someone about developing a high-performing team, which with as much as I enjoy recruiting, that's my passion, is I want to help leaders help the people around them. And so there's four key things that every employee requires and that if you do well as a leader, you will develop and build this team you're looking for. So definition, autonomy, sociability, recognition. Okay, those are the four things. And I'll give you the real brief version of each.
Michael: Okay, give us those four again real quick.
Kyle: Yeah, so it's definition, autonomy, sociability, recognition. And they are in that order for a reason, okay? So definition. First thing we've got to do is make sure people clearly understand what's expected of them. They need to clearly understand what success looks like in their role. They need to clear understand how you're evaluating them [inaudible 00:30:33] their role and how they fit into the overall kind of economic engine of the organization. What is their role in the organization? And why is it important? Okay?
Kyle: So that's the definition piece. Then autonomy is really simple. Don't micromanage. Let people do it. You hired them to do a job. If you defined it well, then they understand what is expected of them now. Then go let them do it. That starts to allow us the freedom that we want as leaders because we're now allowing people to do the job that we hired them to do. So we've given them autonomy. Now, here's the little hiccup to that. Not only are we giving them freedom to succeed, but we also have to give people the freedom to fail. So we have to understand that people are going to fail. It's going to happen. You failed, believe it or not, whenever you were building your business, right? Not you. I now you all didn't. I'm saying as a general rule-
Michael: Oh dude, you don't have to cover up for us. We actually wrote it down in the book. I mean, they all know about it now.
Kathryn: We've cataloged our failures actually, as it turns out.
Michael: Yeah, written them all down.
Kathryn: Whew, here they are.
Kyle: So failures are acceptable, and so what we have to do is just make sure that when people fail, we aren't there to get mad and to berate them and point our fingers and say, "I told you so." We're there to support them, lift them up, and make sure that it's a learning experience so that they can excel in that in the future. And so we've got to give people autonomy, freedom to succeed, freedom to fail. Sociability. They all can be challenging, but this one can be a real challenge for a lot of leaders because our mindset as a business owner, we generally are so driven and passionate about what we do, there is no time for water cooler talk. It is let's get the job done. Why are you talking? This client's mad, and we've got to take care of it. Well, the reality is we spend more time with the people we work with than we do generally our own families. And we may spend years determining who our spouse is going to be, and yet we get thrown into a team of people that we're going to spend more time with than our spouse.
Kyle: So if that's the case, we as leaders not only need to encourage sociability. We need to be participants in sociability in our organization. That means instead of saying I've got too much to do to participate in water cooler talk, and I'm mad at them for doing it, I need to be there involved in it. That's where depth of relationship happens. That's where I find out about your kids, I find out about your life, you find out about mine. And that creates a sense of loyalty in the organization you will not get in any other format fashion. So we've got to encourage and participate in sociability.
Kyle: Then the last piece is recognition. And the reason it's the last piece is because it kind of creates this full circle. If we defined things clear on the front end, now we need to recognize what we defined. So we've told you what success looks like. We're going to recognize when you're doing the things that are going to make you successful. And what that does is it helps us stay calibrated because if I define today and then I don't talk to you about it again for six months, you get just a little bit off that curve, and next thing I know, in six months you're focused on something entirely different. So I have to continue to come back and recognize a job well done so that you now that's what's expected. Now, here's where sometimes leaders get caught up in this, is they think recognition is only going above and beyond, and it's not. Recognition sometimes is as simple as you got to work on time because that's what I expect. Sometimes it's as simple as I asked you to have that report to me by 4:00, and it was on my desk at 4:00. I didn't need it at 2:00. I needed it by 4:00, and at 4:00, you handed it to. I want to recognize you for that simply because I want to make sure you know that was important to me. You did do what I asked, and thank you for that.
Kyle: And so what you're doing is you're constantly kind of drawing back into the calibration into the direction the organization is going and what you expect of them, what you appreciate and what you notice. And I use the attendance issue. I'm not big on that. I don't care about 8:00 to 5:00. My employees work whenever they want to. We've all got cell phones and laptops. It was a few weeks ago, I was talking to one of my employees on the phone, and she said, "By the way, I think I forgot to tell you I'm in Texas this week visiting family." Great. No idea. She literally lives half a mile from me. I didn't know that she was in Texas. It doesn't matter. So that's my take. That's my culture. But if that's important to me, that at 8:00 you're in my office, well, then I need to make sure that I'm recognizing that. I need to tell people that's something that I expect, and then I need to let people know, "Hey, I really appreciate you being here on time. I really appreciate you being here [inaudible 00:35:27]," because now I'm letting people know I recognize it. I notice it. And therefore, it's important to me.
Kyle: So don't just think about recognition about going above and beyond. Sometimes recognition is just simply you're doing just the right thing, doing the average. You're doing what we need to be successful here. And so that helps us stay calibrated, and it allows us to go back to that definition piece when we need to to say obviously, something's off. We're missing each other here. I need to make sure that I'm redefining what the expectations are.
Kathryn: That's good.
Kyle: So those are the four things, definition, autonomy, sociability, recognition. Those are the four things at the core every leader needs to be investing in their team and in the individuals in their team to help build them up to be high performers.
Michael: I like it.
Kathryn: Yeah, that's really good.
Michael: That's really good. Well, okay, we need to stop. And I don't want to stop, but we need to be self-disciplined here.
Kathryn: There may have to be a part two somewhere down the line.
Michael: Down the line. I think we're going to have Mr. Kyle back.
Kathryn: Yeah, I think we're going to have to have more conversations.
Kyle: Love to. Love to.
Michael: I think it's great. I love the idea that you work with junior hires. We in a past life worked with junior hires a lot. And they're an insane age group of people that are both crazy and amazing and lovable and totally irresponsible and able at the same time to handle an amazing amount of responsibility when given to them. It's kind of crazy when we're going through that season of life. And so thank you for even doing that. I don't even know if you get paid or not, but you don't get paid enough.
Kyle: No, I don't.
Michael: Okay. For volunteering in that world, that's a huge thing. So thanks for that. Thanks for contributing where you live. I appreciate it.
Kyle: Well, I appreciate it. It is a passion. I enjoy the opportunity to invest in those young men. And I always like to think of it this way, that by the end of their time with me, if they know a little bit about the Xs and Os of football, then great, but ultimately, I want them to begin understanding and learning what it's like to become a young man. And so I always give this kind of preseason speech. I just gave it this week because it was our first practice. I said, "Here's the thing. I have four kids of my own, but I don't really like kids. I don't know how to related to kids. I don't know how to talk to kids. It's just not my thing. So here's the deal. I'm going to talk to you like young men. I'm going to discuss things with you like young men. I'll answer questions with you like a young man. I'm going to treat you like young men on one condition and one condition only. You have to behave like a young man because if you want to behave like a child, I don't know how to deal with you, and you can go home. But if you want to behave like a young man, I'm going to treat you like a young man, and we will get along just fine."
Kathryn: That's awesome.
Kyle: And so every year, that's kind of my preseason [crosstalk 00:38:23].
Kathryn: Oh, that's great.
Kyle: But that's really, really important to me, is I feel like if I can show them, especially in today's society... And we won't get into all of that, but especially in today's society, I think it's that much more important that these kids understand what it looks like to be a young man, to be strong in your convictions. And you can have a big personality without being a jerk about everything, but you also can be loving and approachable. So there's just so many things I think these young men can learn, and I'm just happy to be a little bitty, tiny part of it for just a few kids every year.
Kathryn: That's awesome.
Michael: Yeah, nice.
Kathryn: I love it.
Michael: Well, Kyle, thank you so much for being here. This is awesome.
Kyle: Loved it.
Michael: A huge amount of value for everybody. There's a lot of good stuff here, and if you wouldn't mind, maybe we can have you back on another episode and talk more about leadership performance.
Kyle: Yes, you name the time, I'm happy to. There's so much more beyond the hiring process, around leadership and around coaching employees. And there's so many in that that I'd love to dive into and share with your audience. So you name the time, and I will be back. I always enjoy having the opportunity to speak with you both.
Kathryn: We'll get someone on that right away.
Michael: Well, thank you, everybody, for listening to us today. This has been a great opportunity to talk about HR in a way that actually it's like this is where life is. It's not this place where people go to go to sleep. And there's a lot of great things that happened because of the Passion and Provision company is actually this whole entire idea of how do you build something that's healthy, that has longevity as a company, and that involves a healthy group of people?
Kathryn: Yeah, so you can enjoy coming to work.
Michael: Because you have that resiliency. You have that ability that it can continue. It has the long legs to it. And a Passion and Provision company, if you can get away for your vacations and get that rest and get all that stuff, why you started your company in the first place. I loved it earlier when I heard... Recently I heard somebody say, "Leaders didn't start companies"... And it's similar to what you said today, Kyle. "Leaders didn't start companies so that the company could enslave them.
Kyle: That's right.
Michael: They started companies so that they'd have more opportunities and freedom and that they would be the master over the company. And that may sound a little crazy, but that's what we all want. We all want that freedom. And sometimes our goals for first-time business owners are a little out of whack. We don't quite understand what we can expect from a company, but there's a lot more that we can get out of them than a lot of us have seen. And so as we continue to work on that and bring folks like Kyle to the table to help us understand, there's some amazing things that can happen that can set you free to grow a company that's way, way more fulfilling than you could ever imagine. So thank you for joining us today. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the HaBo Village podcast. Have a great week.