Michael: Hello, and welcome to the HaBO village podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the podcast that helps business leaders like you build Passion and Provision companies, full of profit purpose and legacy so that you can find more fulfillment and more profit in the work you do and spread that goodness all around you.
Kathryn: Spread that goodness everywhere. Get with the goodness. It's all good.
Michael: Today we're going to talk about what is defining a leader? How do we define a leader? And we're going to use a definition that we have been taught actually and brought into. And I want to say marinaded in-
Kathryn: Gosh, marinating in.
Michael: ... over the last multiple years. And in the last couple of months, it's kind of come back to the surface and it is super important to us. And so we're going to get into that in just a minute. But the reason we're doing this, why are we talking about the definition of a leader?
Kathryn: Well, not just the definition of a leader, but of a good leader.
Michael: Good leader.
Kathryn: Actually, because there are just crap leaders and we're not talking about that.
Michael: None of those crap leaders.
Kathryn: Well, as the saying in the book goes, right, don't be a bad leader it sucks for everyone.
Michael: Sucks for everyone.
Kathryn: Okay. So having clarified that, we're going to talk about good leadership. I mean, I think, especially in what we'll be talking about today, we are in a season as leaders that just requires so much attention and requires so much intention about how it is that we're leading our people and how it is that we're sort of showing up in the room to deal with the level of anxiety, the level of uncertainty in the world that we live in, the questions about where are we going? How long is this COVID-19 thing going to be haunting us? And as we bob up and down-
Michael: Yes, we bob.
Kathryn: ... in terms of our restrictions and all of that, like, what's it going to look like? So there's so much unrest, so much anxiety, and as leaders, we have an opportunity to step in and help people, lead people to a place of hope and optimism and things that are going to help keep them moving forward when they could get quite mired down. So that's always our job, but in this particular season, it is amplified, I think, multifold between elections and the pandemic and everything else that's going on. There's just so much unrest and so much concern and question about what the future is going to look like.
Michael: Okay. One of the other things that's also true on top of all of that is last week we talked about, or in the last episode we recorded, we talked about VUCA. The volatility
Kathryn: That makes me want to go vu ca vu ca vu. What does that remind you of?
Michael: Bill Cosby.
Kathryn: Yeah, it does. Which is a bummer sadly. [crosstalk 00:02:48] If you don't know what that means, don't bother with it.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We won't go there. So when we were talking about VUCA in the last episode, if you really want to check things out, go check that out. We did a really good job talking about volatility-
Kathryn: We did a good job. Way to pat yourself on the back. We were brilliant. Go and listen.
Michael: All right. Fine.
Kathryn: That was funny.
Michael: For those of you who are all of a sudden at the moment, you've been listening to us and you're worried about Kathryn, because you think she's putting on airs or building any British accent, you need to know she has schizophrenic accent disorder. It's a clinical problem. We're seeking help for it.
Kathryn: Have been for 30 years.
Michael: Kathryn's British, but she spent most of her growing up in the States.
Kathryn: But I just spent a week with my brother.
Michael: You just spent a week with your brother and so-
Kathryn: Whatever reason, it brings it out.
Michael: No, it's good. I love it because I'm married to two women and it's legal in California.
Kathryn: Right. So VUCA.
Michael: Anyways. So that's Kathryn's accent. If you're kind of curious, she really is British. She's just not always there. Now VUCA is an acronym, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. And we talked about it last week on the podcast or last episode. I need to stop saying last week.
Kathryn: Because you never know.
Michael: Because you never know.
Kathryn: You're not in control of when these errors it turns out because there's a lot of ambiguity and complexity.
Michael: Right?
Michael: So what we talked about is the idea that everything is getting more challenging. There are more pieces and parts to our life and our world. And one of the things we said last week was when you double the size of an organization or a machine you 10 X, the complexity. And with VUCA, VUCA is an acronym that helps us understand how to talk about all those dynamics because they're coming in really in four different categories that we're articulating. And Bob Johansen wrote about those and we talked about them. In that episode, we mentioned that we were going to go into this whole idea of the definition of a good leader, because it was really important. So the definition of a good leader is?
Kathryn: A self-defined, non-anxious presence.
Michael: A self-defined individual with a non-anxious presence.
Kathryn: Right? What you said. That was much better.
Michael: Right? I am here to help.
Kathryn: A self-defined individual with a non-anxious presence.
Michael: So, and that's a good leader. So a good leader is self-defined with a non-anxious presence. Okay. Now we're going to unpack that for the rest of this episode, because this is super cool, super powerful. And this is something that we spend our lives working on.
Kathryn: Well, one of the things I love about this definition before we unpack it is that once you understand what it means, it's a very quick check on how you're doing, right? I can be like, "I am not actually that today. Oh, good to know. Let's let's pull back and figure out what's happening." So I love that part of it.
Michael: Yeah. And they go together, you don't get to have one without the other. They actually need each other. To have a non-anxious presence, you have to be self-defined and you have to be self-defined in a healthy way. It actually is growing in your healthiness. In the book, we talk about the inner game and the outer game as a leader, and you have to be growing in your inner game and your outer game. One of the biggest mistakes that leaders have all the time is they don't grow as a leader because we talked about the shadow, the shadow is, it's a metaphor. But we say a company will never grow beyond the length of a leader's shadow. And if it does, it will shrink back because sometimes there's these growth spurts that happen. And then all of a sudden it's like, "I can't handle it." And the company shrinks back because we just don't have the capacity to lead at that level. Until we grow, and as we grow, we're linked in our shadow. So that said, let's talk about self-defined for a moment. What does the dictionary say about that?
Kathryn: So I'm going to read this three times because it will help actually.
Michael: All right.
Kathryn: Okay. So the dictionary definition, actually Merriam Webster says, "the evaluation by oneself of one's worth as an individual in distinction from one's interpersonal or social roles." Now I'm going to change the pronoun because this will help you.
Michael: Okay.
Kathryn: The evaluation by myself of my worth as an individual in distinction from my interpersonal or social roles.
Michael: Okay.
Kathryn: Or since you're listening, the evaluation of, by yourself, your own evaluation of your worth as an individual in distinction from your personal interpersonal or social roles.
Michael: Okay. So in separation or distinction, outside of my social roles, all my relationships, whether they be business relationships, personal relationships, family, relationships, friendships, any of those, what it's saying is I have to have identity and a value of self-worth. Who am I? And what's my worth, that's separate from all of that.
Kathryn: Right.
Michael: I believe that that happens in relationships with others, but it's not tossed around by those relationships.
Kathryn: Yeah. So in other words, I mean, one easy way to sort of look at it is to say if by tragedy, by whatever, if everything that sort of defines who I am, wife, mom, business owner, whatever. If everything was stripped away and suddenly it was all taken away from me, what would I have left? Would I still have an understanding of myself? Would I still have a sense of self-worth, independent of all of those roles and all of those relationships?
Michael: It really is, I mean, for me, it's the alone on a desert island litmus test.
Kathryn: Yes.
Michael: Who am I? Am I okay with myself? And do I have self worth? Do I value myself and who I am if on a desert island all alone and I have no identity and everything else, or what even gets in more pressure is then when I add, once I do that, when I start adding society and culture and expectations and everything else in is my idea because I'm self-defined, is it clear enough? Is that value and worth clear enough that now it's not, I'm not like, "Well, I'm fine without other people judging me." But when I get back around those situations and the social circles I'm in, or the financial costs of it or whatever, or changing it, do I have an idea that's defined internally so that when something comes across and says, "You're not worth this, you don't have value here. You don't matter. You're not good enough. You're not smart enough."
Kathryn: People. Don't like you. Thank you Saturday Night Live skit.
Michael: Then you're in that situation where you can say, "If those don't jerk you around emotionally and start changing the way you think or behave because of those situations, then that's a self-defined person." And then the question is are you self-defined in a place where it's healthy?
Kathryn: Yeah. So for example, I can give you at least one good story of how I knew a number of years ago that I was not yet self-defined.
Michael: Okay.
Kathryn: So I'm guessing that all of you have people in your lives. Sometimes it's family, sometimes it's other people who sort of, they intimidate you or they're just somebody that you have a difficult time being yourself around. So I have one of those people in my life who will remain nameless. And I had an opportunity probably about God, it's got to be like 15 years ago, 10 years ago maybe, to go and spend time with that person. And with that, in that situation, without you being around you being Michael.
Michael: Michael.
Kathryn: And I would describe it as I felt like I lost who I was. Like in the middle of being with that person who's so dominating and so overwhelming and so full of opinion, I felt completely lost. Like I felt like my opinions didn't matter, who I am as a person, I don't even know who I am as a person. I don't actually know what I think. I just, I lost myself and it was so painful to me, but it was also so good for me.
Michael: Well, and it's important to probably say this, you are one of the most self-defined people I know. You are very solid and clear on who you are. There is a place that you wrestle as you are trying to define, and you want more clarity than you have.
Kathryn: Regularly.
Michael: But what you do bring is a lot of stability and a lot of confidence to every relationship. So to step into that situation was even more jolting for you because it's not characteristic of you.
Kathryn: Right? I mean, even as I tried to describe it, when I came back home and I tried to describe it to friends, they were looking at me like, what? You bought what? This is you, how does that happen? Like clearly I had some work to do on self-definition because in that situation, I lost my sense of who I was.
Michael: Yeah.
Kathryn: So that's just an example. And I think sometimes that can happen for me in business around people that I perceive to be ... I just assume this is one of the challenges I have, being self-defined I assume everyone in the room is smarter than I am, right? Especially in a business, like if I'm in a business conference and we're talking with another speaker or one of the main people, it's really easy for me to lose my sense that I actually have something to contribute. So that's the battle I have to fight on a regular basis to maintain self-definition is the belief that I actually have something really valuable to contribute.
Michael: Right.
Kathryn: And that I'm okay and that even if I don't contribute, I'm still actually okay, right?
Michael: Right.
Michael: Well one of the things to understand is I can be in a room. So as business people, in business relationships, now those of you who are listening, you may already start translating this into a whole lot of different areas of your life, but let's just stay with business for a moment. In a business context, it's really, unless you're protecting yourself and making sure that you're always in a situation where you're the smartest person in the room, and you're always making sure that you have all the answers and you're always making sure that you have control. And if you do that, you have to ask yourself, wait a minute, are you protecting yourself so much because well, why are you protecting yourself so much?
Michael: I won't even posit a reason. I'll just ask if you're one of those people who do that and you say, "Well, I don't ever have this problem." It may be because you're not putting yourself in a situation where people are different than you, people are smarter than you, people are more successful than you. And you're always making sure that you are that smartest person. And if you do that, you're going to struggle with growing your company. You're going to struggle with finding a Passion and Provision company because you just limit out. And because it's when we continue to be stretched by other people that we grow. So we have this identity thing, we're walking through it and you're in a room where there's a lot of really smart people and then you don't have all the answers. I think one of the litmus test is if something comes up, can you say, I don't know the answer to that.
Kathryn: Well, yeah. And I mean, I can remember once having a significant battle in a business situation where I was really wrestling with feeling like I don't know how to be in this room. I don't know how to interact in this room. And I went on a long walk in this particular place that I was, and I remember just coming to the place of asking kind of my internal dialogue and having my soul, myself, ask this question, which was, you need to make a choice in that kind of a room. The choice is do you want to be humble? Or do you want to be humiliated?
Michael: Yeah.
Kathryn: Because it's okay that you don't think like them, but if you try to pretend that you do, it's probably going to end up being humiliating. But if you just humble yourself and learn in that environment, then that's going to go really well. And so those choices, again, just defining who I am and how I function and saying, "Yeah, it's okay that I don't think like that or operate like that or function like that. I'm different than that. And if I choose to be humble, things can go quite well." And that completely shifted my mindset.
Michael: Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the rest of this with a non-anxious presence. This has been a big deal for me in the last eight weeks. Really big deal. And you can say that on the microphone. She's over there mouthing it like me too. We don't want to tell them.
Kathryn: Don't tell anyone, that'll anxiety a bit.
Michael: The place for me is I have put myself in a situation where I've been overworking. I volunteer at our church, which ties into really one of the ways that we define ourselves, I think this is important to say, one of the ways that Kathryn and I define ourselves and have learned to develop our definition that is continuing to grow and take root is our faith is real important to us. And our faith has informed and given us lots to think about and chew about over the last 40 years to really process who do we want to be. And we ask that question a lot.
Michael: And then when we continue to, in the places where we gain understanding, then we continue to go, okay, how do I grow into that? How do I live into that? How do I let that kind of behavior? Because we want to be people who are characterized by things like love and joy-
Kathryn: And hope.
Michael: ... and peace and patience and kindness and gentleness and self-control and even long suffering and the ability.
Kathryn: Perseverance.
Michael: Yeah.
Michael: And so for us, we've defined, those are part of our identity that we want to make sure we're doing it. And when we don't have those, we're continuing to grow and build on how do we develop those characteristics more? Because that's who we want to be. And over time to some degree, that's who we are. And then our faith continues to inform, our Christian faith continues to inform that even more.
Michael: So that's how we deal with self-define. That's part of our process and formula. It's not simple and easy, and it doesn't happen overnight. You don't flip a switch. But here's how I start to understand more and more. Am I okay if people don't like me or not? Is self-defined with a non-anxious presence. It's amazing how often we have an anxious presence. And let's define anxious for a moment. Anxious is, obviously upfront, probably is having a form of anxiety. So that's the first part of a non-anxious presence, but there are other parts to that. A non-anxious presence is one that's like, imagine a pool of water that is just flat and glass-like.
Michael: I remember being a kid at crater Lake in Oregon, and my grandparents gave me a set of binoculars to look at the water. And there was a few puffy clouds in the sky that day. And here's this lake and you're at the top of the crater. And you're looking down with these magnifying glasses, these binoculars, and it's disorienting because it's so mirror-like that you think you're looking at the sky when you're looking down at the water. And I imagine that is the epitome or the pinnacle of non-anxious.
Kathryn: Yeah. Still.
Michael: There is no water. I mean, yeah. It's just beautiful. And when that happens, there's all these circumstances around us because when complexity, and this is why it connects to the last week's complexity issue, VUCA is there is wind, and I mean, in the water analogy, there's wind and people traveling on the water and creating waves all over the place and storms and things falling from the sky. And that's just kind of like normal life.
Kathryn: There's this behemoth whale jumping up over the boat. Oh no.
Michael: And how do you, in the midst of storms, stay calm. One of the things when I was doing my research on this non-anxious presence was a great opportunity when people are freaking out around you. When they're frustrated, when they're angry, when they have volatility in their emotions, are you able to stay calm inside? It's amazing how much a calm word turns away wrath. It's an old saying. A calm exposure as a leader creates calm, or at least can help bring back calm amongst your people who are around you, who are stressed, freaking out, mad, frustrated for multiple reasons why things aren't working. And all of a sudden you ask them a simple question on a project, because this has happened to me multiple times in the last eight weeks, and all of a sudden you think that was a simple question and they turn around and go, "Why are you judging me? Why are you treating me that way? Stop being a jerk. I can't get this solved yet." And you're like, "Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa."
Michael: Now you realize you haven't achieved a non-anxious presence when they turn on you and that kind of hot lava turns you and spits at you and they throw up on you and you immediately find that your love arises up inside and you spit back. And you get angry. It's that your anger that wasn't there a second ago is now being triggered and it's all over the place. And that is where a non-anxious presence starts showing up. Also it shows up below the service. You may not act it out, but the question is not just your behaviors, have you stopped it inside or have you bottling it up all inside? I was wrestling with that. You and I had a good conversation. You sat me down and said-
Kathryn: I said your frustration tolerance seems to be a bit low.
Michael: Which is so true.
Kathryn: So we have to figure out how to get you a bed rest so that we can build that back up. Because I don't like it. When your frustration tolerance is low.
Michael: Would you say it's characteristic of me to be incredibly calm and poised in the midst of a lot of volatility?
Kathryn: Yes.
Michael: That's a normal for me?
Kathryn: That's a very normal thing for you. You are typically a non-anxious presence.
Michael: When I was growing up and in my teen years, it was the exact opposite. Our life, many of you who listened to this podcast, my father is an alcoholic was an alcoholic, but some people would say once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. He's just dry most of the time now. The challenge is it was a very volatile lifestyle growing up. And we learned as children, my sister and I as we grew up, to continue to respond and become who we needed to be based on the moment. There was a lot of unlearning I needed to do to get past all of that and get to a place of non-anxious. I didn't just grow up being, having non-anxious.
Michael: Matter of fact, I grew up having stomach problems probably when I was eight or nine years old. So, and thinking that was normal. And in my family, it was normal. Everybody had stomach problems in our family. It was like a genetic thing, we blamed it on that kind of thing. Also, I learned to have a non-anxious presence, but several factors were happening. I was overworking. And one of the ways you can maintain, if you have the emotional maturity and identity to have a non-anxious presence, one of the things that can sabotage you is not having good self care.
Michael: What do we mean by self care?
Kathryn: So the only way that you can maintain a self-defined non-anxious presence is by making sure that you rest, that you spend time actually processing what's happening in life however it is that you do that. So in my world, and I've probably talked about this in the past, but I use just the simple saying for myself, I just need to find my 10, right? Which is just, I need 10 minutes minimum to just sit and-
Michael: Every day.
Kathryn: Every day and I don't always do it. And when things start to get out of control, it's because I haven't done that. And because that's where I gained perspective, that's where I remind my soul, who I am, right? And I do it through journaling. I do it through just sitting quietly. There's a number of different approaches. But if you don't have that kind of self care, if you're overworking and everything's at the margins and you're running on the tree [inaudible 00:24:23] of the urgent. You're putting fires out all over the place. You're not doing, what's actually important.
Kathryn: So we've talked about that quadrant, right? And we become anxious when we're living in the urgent, maybe not important politics, but urgent, right. It's everybody's demands and you're just responding.
Michael: Right.
Kathryn: Whereas you're not doing the super, super critical, important, not urgent things. And find my 10 is that critical, important, but not urgent. So I think that that's a big piece of self care. Getting enough sleep, exercising, doing those things that-
Michael: Eating well.
Kathryn: Exercising and eating right. It helps who knew. I mean, it really does.
Michael: What?
Kathryn: I know, right. If you drink beer and eat pizza every night, you're not probably going to be a self-defined non-anxious presence as it turns out because your body's going to rebel.
Michael: It definitely lowers your ability to handle-
Kathryn: Yeah. I mean, nothing against pizza and beer.
Michael: I mean we love pizza and beer.
Kathryn: Every Friday night if possible, but I'm just saying it can't be every night,
Michael: Right? No. And it's, it's very interesting because I usually rest well, I eat fairly well. I don't skip meals. I have an eating pattern that we usually keep to and there are several different dynamics. And then I get quality time. There are things that you and I and Kathryn and everybody listening, there are behaviors and attitudes based on your, as an introvert and extrovert, based on how you take in information, based on the way your brain and your personality process and think, and find places where you can develop energy that's life-giving to you. You got to find those things. For me, I need to be able to have enough time to sit and think. I'm an extrovert. I need to be around people. If I get locked up and I'm alone too long, that's not always healthy. Matter of fact, it's never healthy if I'm locked up too long.
Kathryn: It's never too long.
Michael: But I literally can be in a coffee shop and around a bunch of people not talking to them and I still get some of that. Like, there's an osmosis energy for some of us extroverts that just, that is helpful. Another part of it is really listening to what is it, for years I didn't know exactly what fueled me. And what I realized is I actually have to take in a lot of information. So I take on, I mean, and that's not common for a lot of people.
Kathryn: It's certainly not common for me.
Michael: But I have to. Like right now, I have about 15 books that I'm dabbling in. One of the things that I've been paying attention to, when I get to sit down and pay attention, this is just an example for me. I just finished a book on business development, leadership development of successful business people. I am partway through a book on city development and what causes a healthy city development. And we're talking actually cities and infrastructure and stuff like that. It's a very interesting book called Strong Town if you're interested. I partially read books through Kathryn because Kathryn, I'm an auditory processor and I'll listen to a lot of auditory books. She'll read a book. She'll tell me a lot of stuff about it because she must tell me about it. That's part of her thing.
Kathryn: He knows lots about 14th century England at the minute.
Michael: I do. And one of the books that you were reading that is on my list to actually go back through is the Accidental President, an interesting-
Kathryn: It's a Truman book.
Michael: It's a Truman book. So you can already see, and then I've got my physics books and I've got a process of 3D software development, game development that I'm processing right now. On top of all the things we do for business development and leader company, I need a certain amount of time to do all those things so that I have enough fuel and energy for myself to be patient and non-anxious. It really is weird. When I get enough of that time to take in all that information, I'm actually way calmer. It's like a motor if any of you get this, that doesn't have enough voltage to it. It starts to get sporadic. It airs, computers will air out when there's just not quite enough voltage. So it starts to have problems. And you have to, actually, some of these motors require a whole lot of extra power to keep them in their healthy range. And I require a lot of that information, a lot of that energy to keep me really calm. Well, that kind of stimulation would drive other people, my wife, insane.
Kathryn: Just watching him sometimes drives me insane.
Michael: They couldn't process it.
Kathryn: It's like, what are you doing?
Michael: Right? So, but this is like, I remember this last two months, we had a conversation three weeks ago, I was working 70 hours a week, which isn't cool. I was not taking any days off or every once in a while, I was just getting a partial Saturday off and I was violating all the rules I knew. Now I wasn't doing it long-term my goal was, this is a short-term project. But you have to have people around you that are telling you it's not okay because I'm yelling at the TV. Well, I'm yelling at football players that weren't catching balls that were getting paid millions of dollars to catch a ball and they should've caught a ball, but my daughter and my wife-
Kathryn: Zero tolerance like zero mercy, like seriously, that was not that good of a throw. Yell at the quarterback if you can yell at anyone.
Michael: We disagree on those two throws, completely.
Michael: But, here's the thing. When you're trying to decide, am I on the edge? Am I struggling? Am I having problems? It's not the behavior that's always bad. Is it uncharacteristic of you? I watch and I think inside that was dumb. I don't yell at the TV that that was dumb. My wife and my daughter looked at me like, who are you? These are little signals. What are the signals? So as we turn to the end of this, I want to ask you some questions. Do you think you're self defined? Is that self-definition of who you are, one that is you like yourself? Do you see the value in yourself? Is it easy for you to be alone?
Kathryn: Do you understand what your purpose is? I mean, that's a piece of it as well isn't it?
Michael: Yeah.
Kathryn: Like independent of everything? Why am I on the planet?
Michael: What is the gift you bring? What are the gifts that you bring that are unique through you and your experience that are going to help the world be a better place? We believe that every single human being has, that has that kind of gifting and calling in their life. And as a leader, it's not only important that you know it, but it's also important that you know it well enough so you are okay calling it out in your people. Because you're going to have a Passion and Provision company as you employ people who actually are the right fit. Their gifts, talents, and skills fit those places. And then how are you at being patient and kind? How are you when people are freaking out around you? Do you have a non-anxious presence, externally and internally?
Michael: If not, we want to encourage you that this is something to either focus your attention on and start to explore, what does this look like and how do I grow here? Or if you're already aware of this and this is not new, it's just, you have that smile on your face this whole entire time, because you're like, I don't hear this conversation enough and this is making me happy that the Redman's are talking about this then way to go, keep going, dig deeper. It's more helpful when you find a tribe of people who value these things, because they're going to help sharpen you and take you deeper. It's hard to get deeper just on your own, you need to have a community. And we just want to encourage you. And then there's that third person right now. You're pissed. You think we're morons.
Kathryn: And you know what, we're self-defined.
Michael: And we're self-defined morons, but no, I don't mean to make light of you, but you're frustrated, you're angry. You're thinking this is a lot of hogwash, but you've stayed listening. And I wanted to say to you, I get how frustrating this can be, this conversation and how politically correct sometimes this conversation can be and how frustrating all that is. But the reality that we've seen over and over again is if you want to have a Passion and Provision company, that's a successful thriving company, that is fulfilling to you and the people who work with you, and you're actually at the end of the day, you don't just have a net profit financially, but you also have a net profit relationally, and socially, this is social commerce. This is what we're talking about.
Michael: The people who use those languages, that's true. This is what it is, because if it's good for you and good for the people around you, it's going to throw off value for your community, for the families of the people who work with you, for your family. It's going to build things up. It's like hydrogen, a hydrogen engine. It's just keeps going. And it's a positive thing. We want to encourage you all to just think about that. And we bring today up because this is extra critical, but it's extra critical even now, more important lately because of COVID and the craziness of the world and changing or not changing presidents, depending on what that looks like in the fall of 2020.
Kathryn: Increase of VUCA.
Michael: Yeah.
Kathryn: Ambiguity. Hmm.
Michael: Lots of ambiguity.
Kathryn: Living in that as a nation.
Michael: This podcast is all about just being real, having real conversations with people we interview in between Kathryn and I about what is actually working to create companies that are fulfilling and profitable, what we call the Passion and Provision strategy that allows you to have more profit, more purpose, and leave a legacy that you're proud of. So we want to thank you today for coming, and if you would, we would really love it if you'd share this podcast with other folks, other leaders, anybody that you can think of, share these episodes on social media. Go to our website at halfabubbleout.com or habovillage.com and check out the website. Check out the podcast, and then just continue to say hit like on Apple or anything like that.
Michael: I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: Kathryn Redman. That was a long sentence.
Michael: It was a long sentence. I apologize. This is now getting longer.
Kathryn: He's like, stop it and just say goodbye woman.
Michael: I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the HaBO village podcast. Have a great day.
Kathryn: Bye-bye.
Michael: Bye-bye.
