Michael: Hello, and welcome to the HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we're really glad you're here today. Thank you very much for joining us. Today, we're going to talk about-
Kathryn: Myers Briggs.
Michael: We're going to talk about the personality test, Myers Briggs. That's right. And we have been studying personality tests and different assessments for years. We actually use multiple versions at Half a Bubble Out in our own leadership development, and we're always exploring and looking at different personality tests to see what they measure, how accurately we think they measure, and so that we continue to achieve one very specific goal, and that is we want to understand ourselves better, and then secondarily, we want to help understand others better so that we can work with others, communicate better, understand how people think and act and behave, and then even their strengths and weaknesses, so that we can start to really build teams, build better healthy relationships.
Michael: I know that it has helped Kathryn's and I's marriage.
Michael: It has helped us in our business. It has helped us raise our daughter, and just starting to understand and realize not everybody's alike. We all have differences, and it turns out that the differences are not infinite. They actually can be quantified and described a little bit in a way that helps us understand while it allows us to keep our individuality, and not just pigeonhole us and throw us into some random category.
Michael: And some of you may have experienced personality tests, and Myers Briggs, and feel that way.
Kathryn: Yeah. One of the places people push back is that it's like, I don't want to take this personality test. Then you're going to say, "Well, you're this, and that means that," and you're going to get pigeonholed into a certain understanding, and our goal is never to pigeonhole. One of the things that's interesting about the Myers Briggs when you study it is that while it results in 16 different possible combinations, and we'll describe what those are, even though there's 16 different possible combinations, there's also this incredible scale of 0-30 on either side that means that if you were to do the math, there's like an infinite combination of possibilities within the results of the test, if you take the deeper test.
Kathryn: So, it is not to pigeonhole. It is more to understand so that we can, again, better communicate, better be prepared for interacting with people, and just in general have a much better experience, because as we obviously are all about, it's Passion and Provision, and the more that we can understand people and help them understand themselves, the more that we can help them land in places and choose things that are going to be within their gift set. So.
Michael: Yeah. That's really important, and one of the things that we're going to do is ... well, let's just dive in. The Myers Briggs test was created several years ago, like decades ago, like probably 40
Kathryn: Several decades ago.
Michael: Which is several years ago.
Michael: Probably about 40 years ago, I believe, give or take maybe a few years more, and what you had is you had Myers and Briggs, which were a mother and daughter team, who started looking at the psychologist Jung.
Kathryn: Carl Jung.
Michael: Carl Jung. Very famous psychologist, psychiatrist. And he had a perspective and looked at trying to understand people and how we think, and our minds, and things like that. So, Myers and Briggs did some work. They built a series of questions to try and categorize all this and understand it, and there's a lot of stuff. If you care, you can research that more, knowing who Myers and Briggs are. And then over time, it has been refined. So, there has been arguments that it's not statistically viable, and that's just not the case anymore.
Michael: It is incredibly statistically viable to a very high degree in the areas of what it does. And so, if you don't know a lot about personality tests, there are camps, and I love things like Myers Briggs, Disc, Strength Finders. We love all those things, and sometimes some of them are used because they seem easier and more accessible. We can speak about a lot of the different ones, and we like them, and I believe that they're like having an ability to look at a picture or an object from different angles.
Kathryn: Yeah. Having different tools in your toolbox, just bring different angles. Not any single one of them does not define everything.
Michael: I will say that Myers Briggs does require you to do some translating and understanding, and it is a little bit trickier, and we have been studying it and paying attention to it for probably 20+ years. Over time, we regularly find new ways of understanding it and interpreting it. So, like anything else, you can create something that's more simple, straightforward, but doesn't have as much dynamic to it.
Kathryn: Depth maybe.
Michael: As much intricacy to it, and something that has more intricacy is going to be a little bit more complicated and take longer to understand.
Kathryn: But potentially yield a deeper understanding and better results, so that's part of what we really love about Myers Briggs.
Michael: Yeah. And the other thing that's really important, a big idea is, as we talk about Myers Briggs, just like everything else on the HaBO Village Podcast, is that we believe that it's important for a Passion and Provision company. So, if you're a leader trying to grow a Passion and Provision organization that is financially successful and growing, and at the same time, fulfilling and full of just even joy, enjoyment, in the midst of that, then Myers Briggs and other personality tools like them are great, so today we're going to talk about that.
Michael: Important to realize that here are the basic pieces of Myers Briggs. It is a four letter code that is developed after taking some kind of a test, and today we're going to give you a link to a place where you can get a free version, and then we'll show you where you can get a more sophisticated one that costs some money.
Kathryn: So, let's talk about the four areas.
Michael: What are the four areas, Kathryn?
Kathryn: We're going to talk about that Michael. So, basically, the Myers Briggs is designed to measure four things. It measures where you get your energy, it measures how you take in information, it measures how you process information, and then it also measures how you make decisions. So, those are kind of the four areas, so I'm going to say those again. It measures where you get your energy, how you receive information, how you take it in, how you then process that information, and how you make decisions.
Michael: Does the energy part talk about carbs or proteins or fats?
Kathryn: No carbs or proteins or fats.
Michael: What kind of energy is it?
Kathryn: So, this is probably one of the places where there's the least understanding, I think, of the Myers Briggs. This is where you're going ... it's how you get your information for-
Michael: Your basic emotional energy.
Michael: That's what we're talking about-
Kathryn: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Michael: You know what? I know. It's a funky question, but it's worth talking, because I've seen people get confused. What kind of energy? Just kind of your basic like ... am I excited and energetic at an emotional level, or am I depleted? And physical and emotional energy both intertwine with each other, but does this really drag me down, or sap my energy, where it takes a lot of energy for me to focus, or does it actually infuse me, and the more I do it, the more energetic I get.
Michael: That said, moving into the subject, the energy area is going to talk about extraversion and introversion. Come back to that in a minute. It's really important that you understand and that the way words are chosen here, the definition of the words, is not necessarily always the generic social definition we use in society. So, just hold that in thought, because when we come back, we're going to redefine these words at some level. Some of them are not going to have that kind of context for you, but some of them are extroversion and introversion will.
Michael: So, we have how you get your energy is the first one, again, receiving information, then the how you process, and how you make decisions. So, what do we mean by extroversion and introversion? Kathryn?
Kathryn: So again, extroversion and introversion really is a measure of what energizes you. So, you'll see questions around do you like large groups, do you like being at parties, do large groups deplete you or do they give you energy. So, it's not just whether you're outgoing or whether you're a private human. That's not got a lot to do with it.
Michael: It has nothing to do with being shy or not being shy.
Kathryn: Nothing. There are incredibly bold introverts. There are introverts who can get up and public speak in front of very large audiences, but it is an issue of where do you get your energy. So, is the activity around people, is the activity better for you if it's a smaller group of people? Do you tend to get more energy from small one-on-one interactions, or small little groups, or do you get super energized when you are in a large group, or when you go to a party, or a dress-up event, or something that allows for a lot of focus and energy? So, that's kind of it.
Michael: Yeah. So, the extrovert ... now, stereotypical extrovert in this scenario, when they go to a party or a large event or a public speaking, where there's anywhere where there's lots of people, usually what happens is, they get a little bit more ramped up. It feeds them. So at the end of an event, you are super excited because you've absorbed all this energy. If an extrovert wants to be alone, they go to a coffee shop, right? They sit in a crowd of people, and they may not pay attention to anybody else, or they may chit chat when they get distracted and they move into conversations, or they may just put their headphones on and be able to focus completely around a group of people.
Michael: Kathryn and I are both like that. Kathryn will journal in a coffee shop full of people and love it.
Kathryn: Without earburds. I'm quite happy.
Michael: And it's easy for you to not pay attention to everybody, but you are energized by that. It's much better than sitting at home at the kitchen table often.
Kathryn: Yeah. And I can do both, because my extrovert and introvert, my scores are very close. I'm very mid. So, I like both of those, but I am quite happy journaling in a coffee shop.
Michael: Now, by using this illustration, it's really important to bring up a characteristic of Myers Briggs, I think at this point, and that is these are preferences. So, what we're saying is, it's like being ... we just use the illustration it's like being left-handed or right-handed. Some people are extremely left or right-handed to the point they can't do anything with the other hand, and it turns out, if you look at a score, the way these score on a version that's paid, one of the versions we like from one of the Myers Briggs association organization, is there's a 30 point score.
Michael: So, you either ... with a 60 point spread. What that means is, I could be extroverted 0-30 points, or introverted 0-30 points, and 0's in the middle. So, what you have is you have this are you slight-
Kathryn: Yeah. Slight introvert or a slight extrovert, or-
Michael: Or maybe you're-
Kathryn: Are you extreme?
Michael: Or just-
Kathryn: Or somewhere in the middle?
Michael: Somewhere in the middle. And so, depending on that is like, if I'm an extreme 30 point extrovert, it's like being an extreme only right-hand person. I can't do anything with my left hand. And, or vice versa. And that's really important because what happens with the free test, and the one we'll recommend to you, it only gives you four letters. It does not give you points, and a lot of the ones that are out there, the way the point structure works, they can come up with the right letters, but you don't get as accurate a point structure in the other free versions, and that's the tricky part of it.
Michael: And that's really where a lot of pigeonholing happens with something like the Myers Briggs. It's like-
Kathryn: Yeah. Because we expect one person with four digits, or the four letters, to look exactly like another person with those same four letters, and we'll unpack a little more of that in a bit, but there are quite, quite broad varieties.
Michael: Yeah. So, the next category is how do you receive information, and it's S or N. S stands for sensory, or sensing, and N stands for intuitive.
Kathryn: Yep. So, this is really when information's coming at you, do you receive information with your five senses? So, if I can touch it, taste it, feel it, smell it, whatever, see it, then it's real, and I am able to receive that information, or are you more of a sort of you get it in your gut, right? You receive information kind of at that gut intuitive level. You are able to ... and I don't describe this well, because I'm not very intuitive. Michael's very intuitive. I'm a sensor. I'm pretty strong in my S.
Michael: So, the way I describe it is, in general, sensing is you use your five senses to take in information, and you're usually very aware of your surroundings, and the N is ... they call it intuitive. Again, it's one of those weird words, because we use intuition, and we all think we have an idea of what intuition means, but it typically means I'm very aware of internal thoughts. I spend ... there was a question on one of the tests, the Myers Briggs test, that I just took, because I wanted to take the 60, the one I was going to send you to for free.
Michael: And one of the questions was, "When you're walking in nature, do you often get lost in your thoughts?" And I read that out loud, and Kathryn started laughing.
Kathryn: I said, when he's walking anywhere, he gets lost in his thoughts.
Kathryn: I, on the other hand, am very attuned to my external surroundings. I'm attuned to nature. I'm looking at the birds. I'm looking at the tree. I'm taking in the color. So, that sensory experience is really powerful for me.
Michael: Now, what's interesting is, I am not a, what we call, we have a comment around here, "If you're a 30 point"-
Kathryn: You're a red line.
Michael: You're a red line. And that's partially because in some of the tests, you get up there and you start to see red on the test, and I'm not a red line intuitive, but I am an intuitive. I can get lost in my thoughts. I can suffer from absent-minded professor syndrome. And yet, I'm a photographer, and a videographer, filmmaker, and I'm a live composition. When Kathryn and I drive down the road and she's driving, we can go at 80 mph, drive by a building, and I can spend the next 10 minutes describing that building, because I see pictures and images quickly, and so, I can be very aware of my environment.
Michael: But as soon as I see that, that building can be gone, and I can be lost thinking about that building for the next 15 or 20 minutes, and not see anything else in front of me. So, it's a really interesting dynamic. It's not a black and white, you either don't see, or you do see, you either don't pay attention. And it's a preference. Where I go first is internal thoughts. Where Kathryn goes first is external environment and senses, and what's coming in.
Kathryn: So, I get really bored in the car because I'm not ... I don't get lost in my thoughts, and I can't read because it makes me sick, so I drive and let him-
Michael: Do whatever.
Kathryn: Think and talk, and process, and do whatever.
Kathryn: So that I can stay sane.
Michael: All right. So, hopefully that's helpful. And then, the third category is thinking or feeling, and this is how you process information. Now, I want to speak to this really quick.
Michael: Because I think this is real key. Again, it speaks to preferences, and also, it speaks to where do you go first. It doesn't mean you don't do the opposite.
Kathryn: Right. Thinkers have feelings, and feelers think.
Michael: And what really is even more ... there's a truth to are you more emotional, or less emotional, in this category when you're processing information. Do your emotions stir more or less? A 30 or red line feeler has a lot of emotions going on on a regular basis, and they process the world through emotions, and a red line T or thinker can seem very unemotional, and the red line feeler can appear to be not thinking, and the red line thinker can appear to be not feeling.
Michael: It's not necessarily true, and what I like even more is, the definition that talks about the feeler is processing information in how it relates to other people. The thinker is relating to information based on its own merit or context. So, if I look at the coffee cup in front of me, I'm going to talk about the coffee cup as a thinker. It's round, it's cylindrical, it's got little art on it, it's got a large round handle, it's got a really colorful logo on it, and everything else. Somebody else is going to look at it, and go, "It's your coffee cup. It's my coffee cup." And I might even say, "Well, it's got something in it."
Michael: If you say describe it, a strong relational is going to say, "Look at data and information in context to people." And it's easy for the thinker to not. So, you've got this place where where do you first go. Now, it doesn't mean that I don't think about where it relates to people, because I'm a T, but that is often my first thing, and then I have to, my second thought or my third thought, is around people, and sometimes what i have learned is I've learned because I think about things without the context of people, I've learned to train myself to automatically go there at times, depending on the context and the environment, maybe first, but oftentimes, quickly second.
Michael: Oh, I've got to remember that I have to think about whose cup this is. It's Kathryn's cup, or my cup, or your cup. So, that process there. Then, the fourth category is how you make decisions.
Kathryn: Yeah. So, this is P or J, which is perceiving or judging. And the real distinction in these is there's kind of a speed element, and there's a what does it take for you to make a decision. So, someone who's a perceiver tends to be, especially the higher you get in the P, you don't want to close your options down. You want very much to make sure that you've explored all possibilities, and you don't want to shut those options down, because you want to stay open. A J tends to be a little bit more black and white. They're going to make decisions just like there's a list of facts in front of me. I'm just going to make a decision. They tend to be a little more process-oriented, more bullet point-oriented, like to check things off the list, where the P tends to be a little more sort of spatial. And so, feed into that, Michael.
Michael: I would say you're right. When you start combining letters, you get quadrants, and we'll talk about that, just at a high level, because it's important to mention, and we'll talk about it more in a different podcast. I'll come back to that in a minute. The P and the J, the J, the biggest thing I've seen with those two and the way we define them is the J wants to make decisions ahead of time and know where they're going, and know what the path is.
Michael: The P wants to leave options open.
Kathryn: Yeah. That's a better way of putting it.
Michael: The J believes more often, their beliefs. They are more comfortable, is probably a better way of putting it, they're more comfortable setting a plan and organizing and structuring ahead of time, so that they can make sure they maximize everything, maximize their opportunity and everything else. The P is concerned that they're going to miss an opportunity, so-
Kathryn: It will present itself, but hasn't presented itself ahead of time, so-
Michael: Sometimes it presents itself at the very last minute, and also, the J is very comfortable with taking in data, doing research, and making decisions ahead of time. The P is not sure that they can catch all the data. They have experience in seeing things at the last minute. And so, the idea that they might miss something, it's difficult, and there's lots of different aspects that go along with this, but I think that's, highlight, that's pretty accurate.
Michael: Now, that gives you four different categories. And then, what happens in the average test, especially the free test, is you answer a bunch of questions, you've never done this before, you answer a bunch of questions, you then get scored, and you score ... you might see, for instance, extrovert, introvert. The average free test gives you some kind of free scoring system, but really what happens is they don't explain the details of the numbers. They just go, "Does your E or I have a higher score?" So, write down that letter down below. And the free ones don't go into all those details, so you'll end up with, for me, I'm an extrovert. I end up with an E. Actually, Kathryn and I are both extroverts.
Michael: And my four letters would be this: ENTP. Extrovert, intuitive, thinker, perceiver. There's always a joke that goes with everything in personality tests, and the joke on mine, or the way people laugh, is every new thought propels. That would be my personality type.
Kathryn: Yep. ENTP. And mine is I am an ESTP. But, what's interesting is my T's really close, so there's times I've tested a little more F, and we'll even talk about that. But, so, ESTP, and my P and my J are a little bit close, so until I was about in my mid-40s, I always tested J, and that is because I think the school system trained to be sort of methodical and get things done, and value all of those things.
Kathryn: So, I was taught to value J behavior. So, I think, early on, I would answer this the way I wanted to be, more than the way that I was. And looking back, I would say that even though I was a straight A student and I never missed a deadline and I was super compliant, the fact of the matter was, if you asked me when I wrote that paper that was due this morning at 8 AM, the answer's probably going to be last night, all night, in a coffee shop, because I was very last minute about everything that I did. So-
Kathryn: I don't think my personality has changed, but my understanding of the way that I actually function has grown.
Michael: Yeah. No. That's a good point. And it doesn't ... none of this, for instance, means anything about quality. It doesn't mean anything about intelligence. Myers Briggs does some things really well. It tells you where you get your energy from as far as relationship to either being alone or other people. It gives you an idea of how you take in information and how you process information, and how you make decisions. It doesn't tell you a whole lot of other stuff. It doesn't tell you quality. It doesn't tell you ethics.
Kathryn: It doesn't tell you your values, or what motivates you.
Michael: It cannot tell you any of that, and there are times when you can get into a situation where people are ... you end up seeing people to two things, I think, that are ... at least two things that happen. One is, you realize that you're behaving in a way because of your environment, people around you want you to behave, and you've done it so long, you've learned, whether you're a child growing up or whatever, you've learned that that's just what's accepted, and if you don't, there's trouble, and you're swimming upstream. And you do everything you can.
Michael: That has thrown tests off, and the more people understand that, when they start looking at something like a Myers Briggs, then you start to realize who am I. The other thing that can change the way this happens is if you're under a lot of stress.
Michael: Which happens in those types of environments, because you, in an extreme environment, you actually ... the research says that under stress, you will flip into what they call the inferior function, which means that it's the opposite in one of the key areas that you are. So, I know that when I become extremely stressed, I start seeking introvert. I move and act like an introvert.
Kathryn: And a J. You start organizing your desk and cleaning things out and straightening up.
Kathryn: All the piles go away.
Michael: I'm a piler. I love my piles, and I usually know what's in my piles. And I kind of am very spatial like that. I want things spread out, because I'm going to my left, to my right, and in front of me, and I've kind of got these places where I know where things are, and when people come in and clean up my stuff, or cleaning, they'll put things in their own order, and I'm like I can't find anything, and it's really crazy.
Michael: But, when I start getting really stressed, I actually come into the office and I start cleaning my ... I close my door, and I start cleaning everything. I clean my desk. I clean all the things up. It's nice and neat and tidy. Now, it's not ... it doesn't look like a tornado on the regular basis. There's a balance, but there's a point at which I can't go any farther and I do that, and everybody knows that I'm stressed, and what it does is help give me a sense of control, but I start operating in that place where I actually want to be alone, and I want to organize and structure and clean.
Michael: That happens when we're in stress modes, and when ... this is real important. In a Passion and Provision company, what we're talking about is a place that is very much at peace. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of high energy and excitement and everything else, but it is lacking in unhealthy conflict. It is maneuvering in a situation where you do not have fear. You have trust. You operate in that place where it's like as long as you're the right person for the company and for the position, the old analogy, "You're on the right bus and you're in the right seat." If that's the case, then the goal is to let you be everything that you can be, because you're going to operate more effectively.
Michael: It actually is going to let your staff be more financially successful for the company. They're going to be more productive. Sales are going to be better. Operations are going to be better. You're going to have more money flowing, because systems are going to work. You're also going to have a place where there's less biting, there's less conflict, there's less [inaudible 00:27:55], I don't know what the word is for that. There's just less of that. And so, there's this feedback loop of the more you create a Passion and Provision company that has goals, communication, trust, accountability, and rewards, or encouragement, then the more you're going to see that people can operate in their natural function, and they're not stressed, so they're going to be the best version of themselves.
Michael: And the Myers Briggs allows you to take a lens to look at that, and there are other tests that, at times, give you a better viewpoint, but we believe that the personality tests ... different personality tests allow you to see people from, yourself and others, from different perspectives, so you can see the whole picture, so you can really appreciate all the dynamics.
Kathryn: Well, and it really helps. We'll just pick on Michael, since he exposed what he does when he's stressed, but-
Michael: I'm exposed.
Kathryn: You're exposed. But, we've done so much work internally with our staff on Myers Briggs, and they understand kind of how each one of us is put together. And they know if Michael closes his door, starts straightening things up, and God forbid, erases his whiteboard-
Michael: I have a big whiteboard in my office.
Kathryn: It's probably not a good day to throw anything new at him. He probably is just really wrestling with some stuff. So, those are just good things to know about people. Like, so if you see someone who seems to be acting out of character, or something different from what they normally are, it's probably because they're in their inferior function, and they're stressed out.
Michael: Stressed. And we intuitively know that, right? All of us-
Kathryn: Of course we do.
Michael: Whether we're sensory or intuitive, we intuitively notice something's different, and there's a good chance that if it's really extreme, there's some kind of stress involved. What's wrong? You okay? Everything. And you know what? People might say, "I'm fine," they're not ready to process yet when they're not fine. But, those kind of aspects go along.
Michael: So, it's really important to understand that you have this idea of being able to understand who you are, because if I can sit down and say, "I get my energy from being around people," so it's really important Michael isn't left alone for too long.
Kathryn: Michael hates to travel alone. He's a little mad at me right now because I-
Michael: I hate to travel alone.
Kathryn: Because I won't go on a trip with him next week because I have too many things to do, and he's like, "No!" Because then he has to be by himself and-
Kathryn: That's no fun.
Michael: Well, and let's talk about that for a second, because the impact on society right now is what we get to do, with you and I traveling together, is super rare, because when you're going for business, you're out on your own. Well, 50% of the population in the Western world in America is an extrovert, and so, here's what happens, is we have all these people that are road warriors that are out there for business, and they don't have the opportunity to have a business partner or a associate or a spouse or anybody going with them. So, they're out there on their own, and what it does is those types of people, that kind of always being around strangers while they can make friends easily, it really wears on them.
Michael: It actually causes more stress on them, than it does the introvert. And if you are like that, you may be saying, "Yeah, this really wears on me." I can do it, and I'm good at it. Again, this says nothing about whether you're good at it or not. But, you're going, "Wow, that really wears on me." So, what do you do to get yourself prepared? That road warrior introvert is going to stay in the room more. That road warrior extrovert's going to go out and do things, be around people as much as possible. There's this natural thing.
Michael: For me, I'm an intuitive thinker, N and T are the next two categories. There, it turns out there's only 10% of the population that falls into the N and T category at the same time, and we are usually leaders in organizations. A huge percentage of people in organizations that are the leaders, CEOs, Founders, different things like that, are NTs. We think about a lot, and we think about the future, and we're processing through strategies, and there's a lot of those dynamics that happen, but we're not always good at actually executing on a regular basis, because we can get distracted into our thoughts.
Michael: We can be working along getting something done, and then all of a sudden, there's some neat thing that's worth thinking about, and we're gone for five minutes. We didn't leave the house. We just went somewhere in our brain.
Kathryn: Yeah. It's basically when I say to Michael, "You need to go book that flight," and then ten minutes later, he's on his computer and I'm like, "Did you book the flight?" "Oh no, I got distracted." Come back to me. Come back to me.
Michael: When I work my to-do list, it takes a lot of energy. Okay. That's what you start to look at, is this whole idea, first of all, can really give ... when we first discovered it, and when other people first discovered it, one of the things that's said a lot is it gives you an amazing amount of freedom because you have an understanding of who you are.
Michael: And you can start to customize the type of work, the type of environment, type of systems and protocols for you that are going to help you be the most successful you can be.
Kathryn: Well, and the other thing that it does, and I've experienced this several different times, is that when you end up in a place that isn't ... how do I put it, that doesn't sort of function the way that you do. You're in an environment where most people think differently, or process life differently than you do. Let me be tangible. We go to a place, let me just say this straight out. We go to a place for some training that primarily caters to intuitives, so most of the people that are there are intuitive thinkers, they're intuitive feelers. I'm a sensor. And it took a couple times being there, and me just crawling out of my skin, like it drove me crazy, because everything was so sort of theoretical-
Michael: It's very abstract and theoretical.
Kathryn: Very abstract, and I was just lost, and I felt stupid, and I felt small. All of those things. And in the middle of one of those weeks, we did a Myers Briggs, and I had taken it a ton of times, but we did it, and then had it interpreted, and then one of the things that was brought back to light for me was yeah, this environment isn't designed for the way that you process, so you're going to have to come up ... if you want to be there, you've got to actually create some strategies and some ways of approaching this situation so that you don't die and lose yourself.
Michael: This is real important. And then, when you start talking to people in your office, when you're doing one-on-one interpersonal work, or you're doing group dynamics, or anything like that, understanding that you need to learn how to communicate to other types, and the good news is, there's two pieces of good news in the midst of all of this, I think, that are important.
Michael: The first is, about Myers Briggs, when it feels like you're being pigeonholed. There's 16 variations. Each variation has a 60 point spread, as I was saying earlier. 0-30 on both sides. If you do the math, there are actually more potential permutations of those scores than there are human beings on the planet Earth right now.
Kathryn: It's a very big number.
Michael: So, there's all these different combinations just using four different categories and eight different letters, that gives you 16 different combinations possible. And out of those 16 combinations, with a scoring system, you can understand the nuances at such a level for yourself that are really helpful. One of the things that's important is that score from introvert to extrovert is really important because to know that the research behind it, there's actually sub-categories that all of the free tests, none of the free tests, give you. You have to do a paid test. But, one of the ones that we use is the Myers Briggs Step 2 Type Indicator. Say that again. Myers Briggs Type Indicator, Step 2.
Michael: And what it does is it shows you your extrovert or introvert score, and all the others, and then it breaks it down, and there are five more categories in it. When you start to look at this, what you start to find is that you can see ... for instance, one of the categories is expressive versus contained. Another one is enthusiastic versus quiet. If you go down just the introversion side, you see receiving, you're contained, you're intimate, you're reflective, you're quiet. The extroversion side on that is initiating, expressive, gregarious, active, enthusiastic. It is possible to be on the enthusiastic side for certain attributes, and still score an introvert. That is how you get people who look like an extrovert, and they're really introverts. We call them expressive introverts.
Kathryn: Yep. Yeah. And we've experienced that a lot, where you have somebody, especially one-on-one, where they just seem like they're so engaged, and they're totally in tune and gregarious and da, da, da, and then you begin to discover over time that they're not really an extrovert. As it turns out, they're very expressive, but in the other places, they score higher on the introvert side, because they actually get their energy from being more quiet or more reflective, but they just happen to be very expressive.
Michael: And you-
Kathryn: It's a nice thing to understand.
Michael: You can also get, and we have seen them in our staff, people who are extroverts, that we totally didn't know they were extroverts, because they're not expressive. They're reserved, they're quiet, and yet, give them a choice to be in a room full of people or off by themselves, 9 times out of 10, they will choose the group of people, because they want to be around. You cannot pigeonhole this on traditional stereotypes of what an extrovert and introvert looks like, because then you'll miss where they get their energy and how to best help them, or best help yourself.
Michael: So, what I'm saying here is there's a lot of diversity in the midst of this, and you can use this tool when you really see the dynamics of it, and the details behind it, to really be helpful, and even just the simple letters can help you at some level. They really can. The other thing is, you may say, "Well Michael, there's so many variations. Everybody's so unique. How can I help understand anybody?" It turns out that if you look into a survey of personality tests over the last 10,000 years, 6,000 years, whatever you think is written history or anything else, for a very long time, what you see is every society tends to group their culture and humanity into four categories: earth, wind, fire, air.
Michael: Winnie the Pooh, Tigger-
Michael: And Rabbit.
Michael: Pick your test. There's these different types of personalities. Hollywood's been very good at making sure that a lot of films have four characters, minimum of three of those different types, these different groups. And Myers Briggs, what they've done is they created this thing called temperaments, and in the temperaments, and the research that's done is realizing that there are a group of people that in their score, they have an N and T, like myself. There are a group of people that have an S and a P in their score, like Kathryn, and we call them ... we call folks like me competitives. We call folks like Kathryn, the nickname is spontaneous.
Kathryn: And then the other two, is there's people who have an SJ, and they are nicknamed methodical. And then, there's people who have an N and an F, and they are humanists.
Michael: And when you look at all the analytics, and this Myers Briggs test has been done on I don't know how many thousands and thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands, of people for 30 years. The amount of data that has come out of it has been phenomenal. And again, it's not always the easiest to read and understand. But, it turns out that we can look at this, and go, "Out of those temperaments, we see four groups." The NTs, the SPs, the SJs, and the NFs. And together, it creates a community of people that we realize wow, together we have all these strengths that make up a whole.
Michael: We think about community and people. We think about thoughts and strategies and future. We think about what's practical, and here, and now, and we think about actually getting things done and being systematic and methodical. And together, you can create a very holistic team that allows you to fill in the gaps. So, somebody's thinking about the big overall strategy, and where are we going, where's our destination, and what [inaudible 00:41:14] the place we're going to get there.
Michael: Somebody's planning the trip out. Somebody's making sure we actually leave today and do something, and we don't spend our time planning forever. And we don't miss what's in front of us.
Kathryn: And somebody else is thinking about how all the different team members will be impacted by the trip.
Michael: Yes, absolutely.
Michael: And this is the power of Myers Briggs, to set you free, to find and discover what you do well. And we believe that in a Passion and Provision company, first and foremost, because this is for you leaders, that the idea of understanding Myers Briggs helps you find your leadership style, and it also helps to find and, if you can, to define what types of industries, and what types of businesses, you are better suited for. And then, it allows you to start thinking about the team around you that you will build. What kind of vendors do you need? What kind of leadership team do you need around you? What kind of employees do you need, so that you can balance out your weaknesses, and build up on your strengths.
Michael: And you don't want to do what a friend of ours did a long time ago. He had to hire a business psychologist because they were having way too many problems in their company. There was 10 or 12 or 15 of them. And he'd never heard of the Myers Briggs test. And when this psychologist came in and gave the test, they found out that he had hired a whole lot of people that were just like him, a bunch of introverted, NTS, and they all had their opinions, and nobody could get anything done, and there was all these problems of running a smooth company, because you had too many people that had all the same strengths and all the same weaknesses.
Michael: So, that's Myers Briggs, and that's the value. You think there's any other strong values that stand out to you right now, Kathryn?
Kathryn: I don't think so. I think for Myers Briggs 101, I think that's probably more than enough information.
Michael: It's such a tool, but it does take studying. And any other personality test, whatever you're using, you have to study, and you have to understand how to use them. Strength Finders is probably one of my favorite. It's in my top five favorite tools in this area, and one of the reasons is it's really simple and straightforward, but the simplicity of it can actually ... you can fall into a false sense of security with the simplicity, believing that it gives you a whole picture without actually studying. And the folks behind that would say, "There's a lot to pay attention to here, and there's a lot to learn." If you just take it on the surface for just that, you'll be missing the power of it. And Myers Briggs is the same way.
Kathryn: So, we want to give you a couple of resources. If you just haven't done this, or you just want your team to do this, just to get a general sense, but you're not quite ready to invest a bunch in it, then you should go to 16personalities.com. That is 1-6. 16personalities.com. And there's a free Myers Briggs test, so you can take that, you can have your team take it.
Michael: They won't call it Myers Briggs, but don't worry about that.
Kathryn: Yeah. 16 Personalities leads you to the fact that there are 16 combinations, so that's what that is. And then, if you're looking to go deeper, you can begin your research in a place called cpp.com.
Michael: That's actually the Myers Briggs organization.
Michael: And I believe they sell tests. If not, they will refer you out to an organization that they licensed to do that. We do that here at Half a Bubble Out, but currently, we don't re-sell them. We just use them for our own staff. We use them for hiring. We use them for community work, understanding who's a good fit, understanding our job descriptions, who's going to be a good fit, and who's not going to be a good fit. If somebody's got to be on a computer all day and not talk to anybody, I don't want an extrovert there. They'll go schizo. I know. I would. So, I think that's it for today. That's the Myers Briggs 101 with a little bit of 102 thrown in.
Kathryn: Yes. Indeed.
Michael: So, thank you very much for coming. You know what? If you are looking for, just as a note, if you're looking for an organization that's going to help you build your company, that's going to help you build a Passion and Provision company, that thinks about these things and really leans into helping you better understand your leadership level and your management structure and the company, Half a Bubble Out, that's what we do. We do it for a living. We help and work with companies that want to grow and build Passion and Provision companies, that know they have a weak spot, and that they want to strengthen it, and they want help.
Michael: So, if that might be something that you might find useful, please. Go to our website at halfabubbleout.com, and fill out a form or give us a call, and we can talk to you about that. That would be great.
Michael: The other thing that we would ask, go out to iTunes. Bumbling over that. Go out to iTunes, and hit Subscribe, and we would love that, and tell somebody about our podcast, if it's been helpful to you. So, this tongue-tied guy is having a hard time today, but we want to say thank you and have a wonderful week.
Kathryn: Words are hard.
Michael: Words are hard. Bye bye.
Kathryn: Bye bye.