Michael: Hello and welcome to the HaBO Village podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we're really glad you're visiting us today or coming back today. Welcome back. Thanks for joining us.
Kathryn: You too regulars, I know there's way more of you than that. Come one.
Michael: Come on. There's at least five.
Kathryn: Chime in.
Michael: So of all those folks listening, coming back, this podcast is about helping business leaders, whether you are business owners or you are leaders in your company of small and medium sized companies, build Passion and Provision companies to encourage you, educate you, equip you, and maybe even console you in the midst of things that just are hard, and today we're going to console and then maybe wraparound to encouragement.
Kathryn: It's possible we might just console each other and then they can just listen in. What do you think?
Michael: I don't know.
Kathryn: I don't know.
Michael: I don't know if that's fun or not. So the thing we're going to talk about today is how hard it is in the midst of all of the changes in the world right now, in the midst of COVID and the laws and the shifts and the uncertainty and the ambiguity.
Kathryn: Oh my goodness.
Michael: Everywhere. And if we're talking about resilience, which we're about ready to launch a resilience quiz, just to help people see okay, and assess how resilient are you right now and how resilient is your company right now? But you were saying earlier about resilience in one of your challenges about all the talk about resilience right now.
Kathryn: Yeah, so I'm one of those people that every once in a while, I just am like would you just stop telling me that there's five steps to be resilient and four ways to improve your mental health and blah, blah, blah. Just let me be mad for a little bit. Just let me just own that we just had wave two, this is end of July, we're in wave two, we just moved back into lockdown.
Michael: For those of you that don't know, we're in California, so in one on the hot spots.
Kathryn: Yeah, and there's just this sense of frustration, and I think the thing that I'm realizing is that I'm just sad. I'm just sad. I'm sick of it and I'm sad because it just requires so much more mental energy to remain optimistic, to keep the team motivated, to navigate the various sensitivities of different people in all spheres of the world, to be not really able to socialize with friends. I'm just done. I'm sad. So I do need to give myself a pep talk, but there's also a sense of needing to just be able to say it out loud and be honest about it.
Michael: Don't you think people are being honest though when they're saying, "This is stupid. I hate this. This is ... I am so ..."
Kathryn: But see, that's just grumpy though and that's just masking what I think is really happening, which is stress and sadness.
Kathryn: Maybe I'm wrong.
Michael: Well, then talk more about that. Stress and sadness, yes. I don't deny that. I also wouldn't say that anger is not part of the process.
Kathryn: No, it's definitely part of the process. All I'm saying is anger is the expression of other things that are happening. That's all I'm saying.
Michael: It often is. It's like I feel out of control.
Michael: I feel frustrated. Especially a lot of companies right now. They're just struggling deeply. So here's probably what's going on right now for you listening today, some of you are gone right now.
Kathryn: I don't want to listen to these people talk. Forget it.
Michael: This is not the best podcast for whatever I'm doing right now. I think one of the things that's maybe helpful is we just say, "Look, yeah, you're not alone. And it's hard and it's frustrating." And you sit there and it's like, this is hopefully that moment for us, with you, that you're going yeah, this is like that late night conversation where you're just going, yeah, this is real. I can't live here.
Michael: I had a conversation recently, it's like it's scary to admit that it's scary or hard because there are some of us who are afraid that if we open up that door, it's like opening up Pandora's box.
Kathryn: Well, yeah. And we talked about this long before COVID ever hit. Part of the loneliness of leadership is who is it safe to say I'm kind of freaking out, right? Or I'm really scared. Who is it safe to say that to?
Michael: Yeah, but that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the internal what I'm afraid of me.
Kathryn: Sort of caving in on yourself.
Michael: Yeah. Because there's a certain level of control, I don't think it's just men. I don't know if this has anything to do with sex, male or female leaders or not, there are some of us though that we know the emotions we have are so strong that we're nervous that if you go and sit down and go I'm going to have an honest moment where those things come out, I don't know if I can put them back away. And I don't know if it's going to drive me into a place where I either become obsessive about it or I just become depressed because I start believing that there's just no out. And for some business leaders right now, it's looking like there is no out. For some, they're absolutely optimistic. The average entrepreneur is so optimistic they're like, well yeah, there's a nuclear weapon in the sky headed towards me, but I'm sure there's a way I could avoid it.
Kathryn: I'm going to build a mousetrap and fix that thing.
Michael: For those of you who don't know this, we used to live at the base of NORAD in Colorado.
Kathryn: Cheyenne Mountain, baby. It was very comforting.
Michael: Which was actually North American Air Defense something or other, basically it is one of the key targets for a nuclear attack if that were to ever happen.
Kathryn: We were pretty excited about that, because it was like, you know what, if we're going, we're going fast.
Michael: Yeah, the flash. We'll see the rockets come in and we will never notice the flash.
Kathryn: Yes, it'll just be over.
Michael: And I was comforted with going quick as opposed to going slow. But it's like that. It's like, okay so that's just one of the things to be honest and real. And yet, if we do not take moments where we address those things and hopefully find somebody safe to talk to, those things are going to ... They wear on us and a lot of us don't realize it, and even those of us who realize it, I'm self aware, I know it wears on me, but there's times when I just get into a habit where I'm like I can't address that now. If I do, I'm afraid it's going to take my eye off the ball of what needs to happen and I just can't go there.
Michael: But what happens is sometimes as we put off going there at all and then ...
Kathryn: And then it just builds and builds and builds.
Michael: And sometimes those builds can happen in a matter of weeks. We've seen it happen for us in the past in other events where that stress builds in about six to 12 weeks and all of a sudden it's heavy enough that it starts to really kind of crack things. And so we don't want you to get there, we don't want you to go there because the first step of being resilient, being a good problem solver, and everything else is really being willing to say, "This sucks. I think I feel out of control. I don't know if I can fix this." And just being willing to go okay. Then the next choice is, well ...
Kathryn: Yeah, what choice is there? We have to figure out a way through.
Michael: You either go forward or you just sit down and like the old story of the man who just goes, "I'm just going to sit on the side of the road and die because there's nothing else I can do." And we're entrepreneurs, we don't do that. We don't do that at all. We survive.
Kathryn: Yeah, problem solving.
Michael: And even if this company that we're in doesn't survive, the company is not us, it's an extension of us. It's important for us to all remember, and if this company dies, we don't want that to happen, but then you can rebuild, you can start over and rebuild, and periodically, I've told you this, I think about every once in a while what would it be like if we had to restart all over? And it's not because I want to, it's not because I plan to ... Well, every once in a while I do want to. To be honest.
Michael: Every once in a while I just think it'd be really nice if I could, blah, blah, blah. What I'm worried about is that we would go start a company that was even more successful from the get go than the past two and we'd be back at a place where we had a bunch of people and a bunch of stuff and everything else. And I love this company.
Kathryn: I'm glad to hear you say that. We do talk about building Passion and Provision companies, so the idea that you'd want to just like walk away from the one you built is never a good gift.
Michael: No, but this is a little bit of a tangent on the topic, but I think it's relevant to that comment. Everything has its lifespan.
Kathryn: That's true.
Michael: And so even if you build an amazing ... I don't want to ... Here we are the authors of Passion and Provision concept and we've coined that term and we've trademarked it with the National American Federation of blah, blah, blah, trademarks.
Kathryn: Which we actually have.
Michael: And we wrote the book.
Kathryn: We wrote the book.
Michael: We wrote the book.
Kathryn: We are fulfilled. There's nothing more to do.
Michael: But what I don't want to do is paint ourselves into a corner where we say, "Okay, that means we can never stop."
Michael: I mean, there are seasons for everything and everything has its season, the old saying goes. And sometimes it's just like, all right, I've run the gamut here. There's a company called Moz, M-O-Z, and it was started in 2002, I think, 2003, 17 years ago. And I just found out that the founder left within the last year and a half and started another company. He's the CEO and founder of this company, and for those of you don't know, Moz is all about understanding a Google search and how to rank in it and how to use it for marketing.
Michael: And talk about respected and talk about knowledgeable and talk about just a real asset to the marketing community and the Google search community and everything else. And yet it was time to move on and there was no major catastrophe that I heard of or anything like that. And when I found that out this morning driving to work, I was like, "Wow, Rand Fishkin is no longer at Moz. He started ... Wow!" And yeah, I was reminded, there's a season for everything.
Michael: This COVID thing for some people, unfortunately, is going to be the end of the season for some of their things. It doesn't mean that there's not another thing coming, there's not another season coming. When winter comes, spring's always on its heels.
Kathryn: This too shall pass.
Michael: Yeah, and I think right now we have a lot of opportunity, but it is hard and it is frustrating.
Kathryn: And I think part of what makes it hard, and you said it earlier, part of makes it hard I think is that many people, not everyone, but many people went into this being like, "Okay, we're going to get to summertime and it'll be over." And coming to sort of a different realization that now we're at the end of July, beginning of August, and it's not going to be over for awhile. And I think that lack of knowing when the end season might be, and even the challenge of just governmental entities not being clear, which makes it even harder to know.
Kathryn: So you're balancing and navigating a whole bunch of unknown and then you pick up your phone in the morning and you see that Fauci just said we should all also wear goggles, and I was like, "Oh God, help me now."
Michael: Put everyone in a bubble suit.
Kathryn: Let's just go for full on in hazmat suits. In fact, we could probably start a whole industry on fancy hazmat suits. So yeah, it's that kind of stuff where it's just this constant drip of concern and wonder as to when it's going to change or end or be different, and I think those are just very real challenges because you just don't know.
Kathryn: So one of the things that I think is true because of all of that is that it requires more energy to keep moving forward right now. It just does, and so I will get to the end of the day or hit the weekend and I am just exhausted and I've done what I needed to do, I've gotten through the day, I've made the commitments, I've talked with the clients. We're doing just fine, but I'm just more tired than normal.
Kathryn: And so even just being able to give myself permission that that doesn't mean there's something wrong, it's a season and it's okay. It's okay to be a little more tired. It's okay to struggle a little.
Michael: Yeah. So one of the things that was interesting about a conversation I had yesterday with another leader was ... There were several people having a conversation. We weren't social distancing like maybe we should have, but I know these people really well and anyway, I'm realizing that you have to be ... You start to be careful about what you say and where you say it and how you're distancing people and all those kinds of things.
Kathryn: It's part of the extra energy.
Michael: It is totally. There's so much extra energy you have to put into on what's right, what's wrong, or if you don't care about trying to figure out what's right or what's wrong, I've noticed those people are just more pissed trying to push against what's happening in the status quo.
Michael: So you're kind of going along with that and you're talking and we were saying, I had had a conversation, I relayed conversation I had. I may have said this on this podcast or not before, I don't know, is that when I was speaking with our GP or general doctor, general practitioner, and I was having my annual physical and she's fantastic and we just have great conversations about once or twice a year and we just catch up.
Michael: So I'm talking to her and her husband's a historian, and he had been doing research, especially here in our hometown, in the newspaper, and I told you about this, but we were talking yesterday about how this guy was doing the research and reading old stories in the microfish or online in digital that came from our local newspaper at the turn of the 1900s. So it was in that first 1915, 1918 area and all that kind of stuff. There are stories. She said there are stories that look like they're from today's news where people had to wear masks around town and they had to wear masks into stores and where people were getting upset because they didn't want to wear a mask. And there was somebody who got a ticket or arrested because they wouldn't wear a mask and all of that kind of stuff.
Michael: And I was talking to this friend, this other leader, and he all of a sudden, because he's like the rest of us, he's riled up, he's frustrated, he doesn't want to have to run his company this way, he doesn't want to have to think about all these different things with the laws and the fact that if somebody gets COVID right now, it's a workman's comp claim, and we've all been taught that workman comp claims are really, really, really bad for us.
Kathryn: Even though someone says they're not going to increase your rates, you're still like yeah, but it's still a claim and it's really bad.
Michael: Yeah. And it's like this is going to cost me money, somehow this is going to cost me money. I know this is going to cost me money.
Kathryn: And they probably got it at the grocery store, so how is that fair?
Michael: It's just like this is not right. Okay, so we're dealing with all those emotions and you want to wave your fist in the air, pound your fist on the table and stuff like this. And when I told them about what happened back around 1915, they were like oh, and it kind of was that intrinsically somehow we know that this is not the first time this has ever happened in life, but a lot of times we think because it's now and it's what we're experiencing and our generation, or anybody alive pretty much, almost everybody alive, did not experience it and if they did experience it, they were babies.
Michael: So you have people go, "I don't know about this. I don't remember it." The news isn't talking about it. The news isn't coming around and going hey, every once in a while somebody says something like we're doing right now, but for the most part, nobody's saying oh, you know what? This happened before.
Kathryn: And we got through it.
Michael: We got through it, blah, blah, blah. And my friend said this. He goes, "Wow, that actually comforts me."
Michael: It makes me feel better because ...
Kathryn: Because I can believe it's going to pass.
Michael: Yeah, because right now it feels like we're headed in a downward slope and like a plane that is falling out of the sky and we're going to hit the ground with a very loud boom, and that's just the way our society is going to be right now. It just feels like it's going to hell in a hand basket. And yet, with the masks and everything else and all this stuff in the sense of we have so much less control than we are used to feeling like we have, we're all like oh, this happened before. They came out of it before.
Michael: And you know what? They came out of it before and this is what the other person standing at the table said. We tend to think that this thing, and it's been said lots, "We're going to talk about 2020 for the rest of our lives. We're going to talk about it. They're going to talk about this in the history books. They're going to talk about this thing. It's going to be there."
Michael: Nobody that I have talked to since I talked to my doctor about that, nobody I've talked to knew about those stories and that event that actually happened in our small town in northern California. And what's interesting is, and he said this yesterday, he goes, "We're going to talk about this forever. We think this is going to mark us. We think this is going to change everything, and yet my parents who grew up were born in the forties and grew up in the fifties post World War II. World War II is what we talked about, nobody talked about those things. What we talked about ...
Kathryn: Some mask thing that happened in 1915, nobody knows about that.
Michael: We talked about other things, we talked about other good things and other bad things, but that didn't occur, and so the idea that this really isn't going to negatively shape us for the rest of our lives and this isn't the end of some master takeover of the government and control of our lives and everything else and all of that kind of stuff. And I was like, wow, that's interesting. That's interesting that it's comforting. That's interesting that ... Because it has been for me. It's like oh, okay.
Michael: It's really rough when something's happening and you've never seen it before, nobody's told you about it, and you don't know ... If it happened before and it had a good outcome, okay, well maybe this has a chance of having a good outcome. If it happened before and there was never a good outcome or this is the first time it's ever happened, which in March and April, I can't tell you how many times on the news I heard, "This is the only time this has ever happened. This has never happened before."
Kathryn: Oh my gosh.
Michael: "It's totally unprecedented." It's unprecedented in our generation.
Kathryn: Well, and it may be unprecedented for it to be global and for us to have access to all of the news that we have access to, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean, I remember reading a quote ...
Michael: The event itself wasn't.
Kathryn: I remember reading a quote early on that was from like the 1500s.
Kathryn: And I was talking about ... And it was a theologian, but he was basically saying ... But he was talking about not being afraid to be obedient, to wear masks, to be covered, but don't be afraid to go and see people when you're called to do that, right? And so he was saying it within a faith context of saying if you're called to go and minister to someone, go and minister to someone, don't be afraid, but meanwhile, don't be dumb, like wear you mask.
Michael: When you read that to me, I was shocked at a writing in a journal in the 1500s that the way he was describing having to clean the house, having to clean things in the environment, having to wear a mask.
Kathryn: And I think it was during ... It might've been the Spanish flu, but I don't ... Don't hold me to that.
Michael: No, no, no, no. This was Martin Luther.
Kathryn: Yeah, I think it was.
Michael: So you have, what's that 1500s?
Michael: Ish. So it was as if he was describing ... It something that was taken out of today's news.
Kathryn: It really was, it was stunning.
Michael: And I was like oh, okay. We survived this, and I don't think there's enough words right now. Yes, it's important to know that it's hard. Yes, it's important to say, "Yeah, this is frustrating." And it's important to remember that it takes an extra toll on our minds and our bodies and everything else, and we've said it multiple times in this podcast. And I don't want to feel like we're being so redundant, but I feel like this is such a long marathon, you need a coach on the side of you going, "Yeah, it's hard, I know it's hard, but it's not going to last forever. You can keep going. Keep going and keep pushing. Just take your moments, drink your water, breathe deeply. Make sure you get a good night's sleep."
Michael: Because we're going to make it through. One way or another ...
Kathryn: This will end. This too shall pass.
Michael: This will end.
Kathryn: For sure.
Michael: I remember Cool Runnings, "Hey Sanka, are you dead yet?"
Kathryn: "Are you dead, man?" "No, man."
Michael: So this for most of us is not unto death. If you're running a company, the sun will rise again, and you can do it, there's a lot of things you can do.
Michael: So what's the point of today, the point of today, trying to say what we said in the beginning, it's okay to admit that it's hard. It's actually important to admit that it's challenging and hard, and to be able to articulate specifically out loud to yourself. There's a thing neurologically where your brain actually needs for you to acknowledge certain very specific things of how something is difficult or hard, or it will continue to hound you from a stress perspective until it knows.
Michael: There's a part of your brain that's like I need to hear you say it out of your mouth and in the ears because that's the only way it gets to that part of the brain.
Kathryn: So that your brain knows that you know.
Michael: Yeah, and it sounds weird.
Kathryn: It's a weird thing.
Michael: It sounds insane. But it's like as soon as I say, "I am ..." State the emotion. "About ..." State the subject. I'm angry at this person for doing this. I am frustrated that I have no control over what's going on with the law and what I have to do. I am frustrated that I can't, if I own a restaurant, that I can't open and have people inside and this flipping and flopping and everything else.
Michael: It doesn't change the situations on the outside, but it does change the way you internalize it and process it, and it frees your mind up to actually problem solve better. And we learned that a long time ago, the neuroscience behind it, and it's amazing how as I've put that into practice, how it's actually affected and changed my energy level and my attitude towards things so that I can address the situation at hand from a better perspective.
Kathryn: Yes. Good, good.
Michael: So anything else you want to add today? Because this topic was your brainchild. Did we cover what you wanted?
Kathryn: I am encouraged. I feel encouraged. Yeah, we did. I think for me, I tend to be ... My philosophy in life is WYSIWYG, right? What you see is what you get, authenticity is my watch word. So when things are hard I'm just like, "Crap, things are hard." And I feel like I just want to be able to say that sometimes knowing that saying it out loud doesn't mean I can't keep going, it doesn't mean I'm not going to solve it, it doesn't mean I'm not going to push through, but owning the challenge is part of that. And I think I just want to be able to say that out loud because apparently my brain needs to know that I know that it's hard and it's okay.
Michael: Yeah, it does.
Kathryn: And if I'm a little more tired than normal, that's okay, I've earned it. We've all earned it. It is what it is.
Michael: So hopefully that has been somewhat encouraging to you today. Thank you for joining us. If you like this or you like this kind of banter or you like the interviews you hear on this and you want to be equipped and encouraged a lot more, or just encouraged and educated and given pieces and parts of what does it look like to have a Passion and Provision company where you have all the resources you need to finish today well and build toward tomorrow, and really enjoy and find purpose and meaning in what you're doing and be fulfilled, then this is the podcast. HaBOVillage.com. HaBO Village podcast. Hit subscribe for us, tell some people about it, and come back next week when we have something else of some amazing interest. Who knows what it will be, and we just hope you have a wonderful week. I'm Michael Redmond.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: Take care.
Kathryn: Bye bye.