Michael: Hi there and welcome to HaBO Village. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And we are excited to be here today. We're going to talk about leadership, but what we have is a guest. Our very first guest in over 50 episodes.
Kathryn: Can we drum roll?
Michael: We have brought on Terry Walling, who is ... We have quoted and talked about Terry Walling many times and we have talked about the fact that he was going to come on and we started having some folks that were listening to the podcast go when are you actually going to bring him on.
Kathryn: We did a little arm twisting last night. A little arm twisting.
Michael: We had a chance to have dinner. I just want to like kind of an important introduction for Terry because I want you to understand the breadth of this man and what he's done in life.
Terry has a Doctorate in Global Leadership Development. He's written five books. He's written over 20 workbooks to go along with those books to help facilitate learning and change. He's taught at the graduate level for 18 years. He was an executive vice president of an organization that dealt with culture and change for 21 years and he's been the president of his own company for 11 years called Leader Breakthrough. He works with leaders in the church and elsewhere because he started working with folks in business too on how to coach and develop leaders and create change. This kind of works out and this was what started our conversation. His doctoral thesis was, which may sound really heady by it's as practical as can be folks. I'm telling you. Personal renewal proceeds and serves to catalyze corporate change.
Michael: Bam. Ladies and gentleman, our friend, coach, mentor, Terry Walling. Welcome.
Terry: Thank you. It's great to be here.
Michael: This is pretty amazing.
Terry: I didn't know this was going to be such a build up. This is pretty exciting.
Michael: Hey, this is a big deal.
Terry: All right.
Michael: All five people who listen to this podcast actually want to know.
Terry: So, three of them were the ones that were saying when are you finally going to have this guy on.
Michael: Right. All three of them. Actually, I know there's more than five. There's got to be at least 10.
Terry: I feel better right now and I'm here for you and them.
Michael: No. So, we've got folks all over the country who actually have been listening to the podcast, different episodes and stuff like that. The focus, as you know, is on leaders. We're constantly helping folks talk about... We're talking about issues on what does it take to lead a Passion Provision company. Those companies that are full of more profit and drive.
Terry: Right. Right.
Michael: Which you and I have been talking about for a very long time.
Terry: Long time.
Michael: Long time. I think to jump into our conversation today, why don't we start with where we were last night at dinner on that whole idea of change and personal renewal is absolutely mandatory for the leader before an organization can truly change.
Terry: Right. Right. Well, let's just make sure we lay a good foundation here.
Terry: Because, I think what you guys are doing and the things that you are working on in terms of helping both companies and individuals is exciting. That's not a paid political announcement, that's just the reality.
Kathryn: Well, we thank you. We thank you.
Terry: Coming with that, was this caveat that actually you and I have talked about a lot and that's ... Let's make sure though, with all of the great ideas and with all the great concepts and with everything that you're going to offer companies and leaders to make a difference, let's not forget about the leader himself.
Terry: One of the core issues I see out there working in non-profit and profit alike is that we put so much faith in ideation, so much faith in the ideas and we actually move into an assumption that people are going to get it, know how to incorporate it and they're going to actually change their behavior just because these are such incredible ideas.
What I find is, very few are able to do that. In fact, most people discount the fact that changing an organization, leading a group of people to a new place, actually first requires that they themselves go to a new place.
Kathryn: You said something really interesting at dinner last night and that was that you know, Michael and I just really started launching this podcast and developing the ideas that we're going to be launching later this year for our membership site. We really just started actually implementing that probably about a year ago.
Kathryn: But, we've been dreaming about it for a really long time.
Kathryn: One of the things you said last night was, the reason we can do it now is because we've grown as leaders.
Kathryn: And as people who have invested in the kind of work that you're talking about which then equips us to go further and take our company further.
Terry: That's exactly right and, because you have changed, the change you initiate now is based upon something that's viable, true, real because it's you.
Kathryn: Yeah. It's authentic.
Terry: It's authentic.
Terry: What people I think now in the age of information explosion and accessibility to everybody's two step, three step process, what people are getting weary of is all of these ideas that aren't backed up by authentic behavior.
Terry: When I say personal renewal precedes and is part of the thing that catalyze corporate change, you can't just put change values, you have to actually behave those values. You can't just give an idea of how a company should run. You need to have incorporated that in your own behavior.
Terry: The change that happens there gives in some sense an authority to your leadership that you don't have to ask for, but people grant to you because they just recognize wow. These people buy this thing they're in.
Kathryn: And they're drinking their own Kool-Aid.
Terry: They have drank the Kool-Aid and they're well down the path.
Kathryn: We've had so much Kool-Aid.
Terry: Yeah. We had some good Kool-Aid last night. Anyways, but that's not what we're talking about. Bottom line is, as we think about what it is that actually is going to turn companies around, the investment of that leader in themselves to me is probably one of the most investments of all. If they don't go there, we're not going there. If they don't actually behave differently, those who they are leading won't behave differently and the product that they offer will have a short shelf life.
Michael: Before we dig in any farther, let's go back and clarify a couple of terms.
Michael: One is ideation, you've used. Let's talk for our listeners a little bit more definition of what do we mean by ideation? What do you mean by ideation?
Michael: And that process.
Terry: Well, ideation is just the core concepts, the core paradigms, the core things that you subscribe to and actually are the foundations that you are using to build off of. Whatever your core assumptions are, whatever your core paradigms are, whatever your core frames are, those are the things that provide then the ability for you to communicate and actually help people understand them and potentially make change.
Ideation has, and everybody has it. Everybody has a core, what I use core ideation. A sense of key principles they subscribe to that have made a difference in their own life and then they're interested in sharing them with other people.
Michael: Most of us as leaders, in my experience, we love not only to think about those things at some level.
Michael: But, we love to talk about them. We love to play with them.
Terry: Oh, yeah.
Michael: I mean, it's almost candy. We get together and hang out in a social environment and you really ... When that stuff starts coming out, you're like oh yeah.
Terry: And then one up man ship, and yeah, but did you read this and yeah but what about this.
Michael: [crosstalk 00:08:14].
Michael: For all of you listening, I mean, for years, gosh. Terry's been a friend of ours for close to 10 or 12 years, somewhere in that neighborhood. For a long time, Terry and I used to get together and we had white board coffee chats.
Kathryn: Like, white board Wednesday.
Terry: Like, hey.
Terry: A new book. White board Wednesday.
Michael: We would get together and hang out in a room, usually somewhere at the office when nobody was around and we'd have the white board. We would just start talking and sharing ideas and concepts. What about this? What about that? We could do this.
Michael: This is my philosophy.
Michael: You'd share yours. I'd share mine.
Michael: A couple things came out of that. First of all, it was just, I guess one of the points that's worthwhile saying is there's a core ideation that leads to core concepts and paradigms that you have to walk through that process to discover what you're about and where you're going.
Michael: When we work with clients in consulting sessions and companies and leadership, we have to do that. We have to take them back into that place. Sometimes, some leaders are not even used to doing that and they don't feel like they're actually getting something done.
Terry: Right. Right.
Michael: The other part is that the fluff on the outside, sometimes it appears to be fluff. Like for you and I, you and I had lots of pretty insightful thoughts and ideas as we were both thinking about our own companies, but you nailed me on some things. You spotted some things in me in the midst of that ideation that were about my calling and my contribution down the road.
Michael: I was able to do the same thing for you in helping you think about and introduce new ideas to business models and things like that.
Terry: Right. That's then my use of the word core.
Terry: Because, there was consistent themes coming in through your communication. I think leadership is communication. It's a lot of things, but one of the key things leaders must do is communicate.
Terry: Bottom line is, there was some consistent themes that you kept arching back to that were part of what it is that made you excited and was part of your contribution to others. I believe leadership is also influence. It's not position. Part of that way we bring influence is through these core ideas, these core concepts, these different ways to view things, these new ideas built upon past learnings that have been advanced. Those kind of things.
Part of personal renewal then is understanding what those are and becoming aware of them and then being able to actually internationalize that into behavior and into your normal day and routine. The more you do that, the more there's that sense of fulfillment. The less that's able to happen, the less there is fulfillment.
Michael: No, that's good. That's really good. Let's talk about Kathryn for a moment Terry.
Kathryn: No. That's always a good time.
Michael: What are some of the shifts and changes as she poured into the discovery process and the growth process over the years as you've seen her leadership development and what that has brought?
Michael: The reason why I talk about this is not so much just to put Kathryn on the spot, but folks, this is so important about thinking about the leaders and how well you lead. I love the old saying and you've heard me say it before on this podcast, your leadership is about as strong as your shadow is long. If you don't have a long shadow, that metaphor, you're not going to be able to lead a company very well. It's reference to the depth of your own personal development. It's this development and understanding of yourself and growth that is significant. As we've talked in the past few episodes, we've been talking about an internal IOS.
Michael: I introduced our listeners to that concept you and I have been talking about.
Michael: And that internal operation system that has to have an upgrade every time we go through to the next level.
Michael: To a new thing.
Michael: Can you describe? Do you think you can remember over the last 10, 12 years how she's kind of shifted?
Kathryn: That's a long time to remember.
Michael: Especially being a significant coach for her.
Terry: Podcast coach. An interesting shift here. Here's what I knew about Kathryn earlier and it's going to sound like fluff, so the listeners are just going to have to accept that it's true. Gifted. Able to communicate. Very persuasive. Understood. Has a high intuitive. Understood kind of what the issues were and able to assemble things and put them in an order that helps makes sense for people.
Terry: That's who I started to discover her to be. What she was really in search of is how all those things work together.
Kathryn: And why they matter.
Terry: They matter.
Kathryn: As I remember.
Terry: Yeah, and could they make a difference? In what way would her understanding of that contribution play out in a company organization or whatever.
Part of the things that happened to us is after a period of time, we end up being kind of a list of all these traits, personalities, all this stuff. We take all these tests. We understand ourselves, but what we don't get is how do they work and how does it come together to make a unique contribution.
A lot of us, we have lot of things we got to do, and so we contribute, but what's the unique contribution? How do those things weave together into something I call her major role that she brings to a team, brings to an organization and whatever? Without sounding like a broken record, the more she's able to do that, all of a sudden I saw her light up.
Terry: All of a sudden, there was that sense of self-awareness building into a greater sense of self-acceptance. By the way, self-awareness is not the issue. Self-awareness is where the issue begins. Self-acceptance is the key. Once a person understands who they are and who they're not and is okay with it, all of a sudden they come alive. When they come alive, we come alive.
Michael: By saying okay with it, you're not saying become complacent.
Terry: Right. No. No. No. No. No. Okay with it is this idea of not trying to be like everyone else.
Terry: Understanding, you know, their unique wiring and being able to actually play that out now on a consistent basis in the lives of others. By the way, that's what influence is. Influence is that ability to be you and see a difference in others as a result of being you.
Kathryn: I remember going through the process with you and certainly having certain things called out that I never knew were a big deal.
Kathryn: Right. Part of it was the discovery process of okay, one of the things I do really well is I translate words for people.
Kathryn: Like, I take their concepts and their ideas, you know, Michael pulls a bunch of stuff out of them, it goes down on paper, and I find words that help them feel like I'm saying it the way they would say it.
Kathryn: Right? I craft words that way, but I never realized that that was actually unique. Like, I think my self-concept back when we were meeting, and this is a number of years ago.
Kathryn: It was anybody could do this. This is nothing.
Terry: I can't tell you how many times I run into that.
Terry: Most people discount what they can do thinking everyone can do it.
Terry: That's why things stay siloed and they don't come together because they don't actually have that sense of wow.
Terry: This is unique.
Kathryn: Well, and once I had that language, then I began to pretty quickly see how that works in lots of different scenarios. That was really helpful for me to really understand that and really be able to step into that and then realize okay, there are certain things I wish I were that I am not.
Kathryn: Right. Even the way that Michael and I partner as a married couple but in business ...
Kathryn: The foundation of that has to be each of us working in our strengths.
Kathryn: The more that I did, you know, the leader breakthrough stuff with you.
Kathryn: The more that I began to be able to actually articulate, define and understand these are the strengths I bring.
Kathryn: And actually, without them, Michael won't be as successful.
Kathryn: You know, because it was easy for me to kind of discount the stuff that I brought to the room.
Kathryn: Right, or to have it be so fuzzy that I couldn't articulate it.
Terry: And just listen to that. Notice as you came alive, we became different, so that's how personal renewal, clarity and transformation then ignites and catalyzes and helps propel the organization forward. If we just work on just the organization and forget that person, all of a sudden we don't have the fuel to drive this thing forward and we're now in some sense just a company that's trying to, you know, make ends meet versus a company or an organization that people want to be a part of.
Kathryn: Right. Passion and Provision.
Kathryn: There's that idea.
Terry: That's catchy. Somebody ought to put that down and say something about that.
Kathryn: Somebody ought to trademark that. No wait. We did.
Terry: I think, you know, what Kathryn's gone through is what I see happen to leaders. Once they actually get back to themselves.
Terry: As they then return back to the company, they're different, and because they're different, that company now has a new set of ideas, a new confidence to it because that individual's confident. My goal in life is to try to help leaders discover those things. Once they discover those things, I've watched in so many situations, the place is different.
I just worked with an organization that did a complete turnaround. As they did this turnaround, the people said, you know, it's exciting that we're doing these new things. It's exciting we got this new place. It's exciting great things are happening, but you know what's most exciting? It's what's happening inside of me.
Michael: Yeah. When you told me that story, I was like that's just awesome.
Kathryn: It gives you goosebumps.
Terry: They want to get up and go again. They want to engage into a battle. They want to believe again that there's a way through a situation because they're alive again.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: There are so many stories that we can talk about. One of the things that I really do want to make sure that we mention to folks is how does this apply in a business beyond just the leader. Kathryn and Terry and I, everybody, I want you to know, we engaged in an experiment probably about six years ago.
Terry: Yep. Yep.
Michael: We decided what we would do is we contracted with Terry for a year.
Terry: It's hard to believe that's six years ago.
Michael: Five or six years ago. Yeah.
Terry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: It really has been a while.
Kathryn: Paige did not have her firstborn yet and her firstborn is now in Kindergarten.
Michael: And six. No. Her firstborn is starting first grade.
Michael: Just finished Kindergarten.
Terry: By the way, we don't have to go here. This causes someone to feel a little older.
Kathryn: It's been a while.
Terry: But keep going. Yeah.
Michael: No, but I think it's ...
Kathryn: Well, your resume should have done that at the beginning buddy.
Terry: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Kathryn: I mean, let's face it. That was quite a litany.
Terry: They didn't fall asleep.
Kathryn: The amazing part is you're not 90.
Michael: Well, so the point I'm trying to make, yes, in the midst of all of this with you two, is we did this experiment. Let me explain the experiment. Kathryn and I have loved leadership for a really long time. So everybody kind of knows the path, we ran into Terry and started building a friendship 10, 12 years ago and started learning that much more about leadership, that we had a common heart in the midst of all the conversation. We just loved each other and then became friends with he and his wife. We've done a lot of life together.
In the midst of all of that conversation, one of the things that happened for us was how well can we apply this to a small business? We don't have a multi-leadership level at Half a Bubble Out. It's a small company. There's usually under 10 employees here and full-time in the office on a regular basis. What does that look like? How would it work? This experiment, now some of you are going to think this is crazy, and it probably was.
Terry: But it was fun.
Michael: But it was a lot of fun.
Kathryn: It was so fun.
Michael: And it yielded a tremendous amount of fruit. An amazing amount of fruit. What we did is we brought Terry in and Terry actually, because of his leadership development ... One of the things we'll talk about in a few minutes and go into more is, he actually believes in coaching. He has a definition of coaching and what that looks like. Coaching versus mentoring and coaching is critical. What we did is we decided we were going to pay to bring Terry in and we were going to give every single staff member a certain amount of time every week. I can't remember if it was an hour or a half hour or something like that, but we did that. We even did it with interns.
Michael: We had like one or interns at the time.
Michael: I thought, if we're going to do it for everybody, you know, the staff, we're going to do it for everybody and what kind of a value will it be for a 21, 22 year old college intern to get that kind of exposure.
Michael: We just ran everybody through. We did that for several months. I mean, I want to think it was six months to a year.
Terry: Oh yeah. We did it at least six months. I think we almost got to a year.
Michael: I think we did. In that time, everybody just heard us mention Paige, and Paige's daughter, but Paige started with us full-time, all excited, and within a couple of months found herself pregnant. Her and her husband weren't planning on having a kid that soon and then all of a sudden, guess what? Their firstborn is on its way. They're like uh oh, but she still wanted to work.
Kathryn: I think she'd been here about a year. I don't think it had been a couple. Had it only been a couple months?
Michael: Based on what she told me recently, it's only been a couple months.
Kathryn: I just know she's going to listen to it and she might push back. Okay. I'll let you win. Go ahead.
Michael: Yeah. Well, there's some fudge factor here.
Kathryn: All right.
Michael: But I don't think the audience cares.
Kathryn: Probably not.
Kathryn: But Paige might.
Terry: Do you two need any help here? Can I give it?
Michael: Let's see if this escalates.
Terry: All right. All right.
Michael: Anyway, so here's what happened. A couple of different things. One. Paige was able to sit through this time and try and figure out with Terry what does she want to do. This is a big transition in life. What's that going to look like? How is that going to affect her professional career? She's in her early 30s and she's thinking okay, I want to do this and I want to do this. Now my life has changed. How do I address that? How do I cope with that? Is any company going to want me? Do I want to stay at home? Do I want to go part-time?
So, they worked through a plan. He coached her to be able to work with us and sit down and present something that she thought would be maybe an amenable opportunity. We encouraged that whole process. We kind of knew something was going on and everything else and then we were told that she was pregnant. We allowed them to work together to kind of brainstorm a plan.
That plan transitioned her to part-time. Three days a week. I never wanted a part-time employee like that. I didn't want somebody doing that, what she was doing. If we had just hired somebody full-time and we needed somebody to stay full-time. Paige has now been with us just now over seven years. It's been an amazing, amazing time. She's a phenomenal seasoned employee that has a tremendous impact on our culture.
Michael: Our performance.
Terry: Yeah. She's great.
Michael: Our client success. I mean, she's had her fingers in so many things. Without that moment, without that period of time that was allowing her to get coaching through it and us as leaders, really to have the benefit of you and being able to dialogue, it was this pseudo coaching/counseling arrangement that literally multiplied the impact of what we had in a hire and we were able to discover a way through that may not have been as obvious before.
I'll tell you what. Even if without the coaching we had said yes. What are we going to do? We'll hire you part-time. The power of that moment and that season still gets talked about to this day by Paige. She still talks about it and references it because it was so significant.
Terry: That was the defining moment for her.
Michael: It really was.
Michael: It was a massively defining moment.
Kathryn: Well, even having the courage to make the request.
Kathryn: And even believe she'd be heard. Right?
Kathryn: Which I think some people when they're approaching their bosses, whoever they are and however wondrous they might be ...
Kathryn: It's what if they don't want me? How do I do that? You know, so ...
Terry: Right. Right. Actually, those were some of the things we worked through. We talked through. You know? Part of that, what happens to us is even part of this renewal thing, is actually going through these significant moments.
Michael: Yeah. That's a great point.
Terry: And being okay with being who we are and then watching things unfold as a result of that. They don't always work out like it has worked out with Paige, but what happens is there's a great sense of self-confidence and definition that comes to that person. When that definition comes, even if it doesn't work out, they're a different person.
Michael: Well, through that process, the intern that we had. Nice young man. It became very clear where he was in life and what was going on, is when he graduated and we had an opening and he applied, that this wasn't the best thing for him.
Michael: It wasn't the best thing for us.
Michael: We wanted him to be able to find what he needed and to go where he was going to be able to flourish.
Michael: It was clear that in that Half a Bubble Out wasn't going to be that place.
Michael: Then, we have a couple of employees that were here at that time that are no longer here. One, it was clear that as the company grew, they were discovering that this wasn't the best place, even though that was scary for them.
Terry: You know, though, let me take a quick left turn on you though.
Terry: Here's why I think that all worked.
Terry: Because you and Kathryn got coaching.
Kathryn: Yeah, because we had already been through it.
Terry: It worked in this company because you two had already been through it. You two modeled it by way of behavior. You two valued it by way of personal experience, not hey, we should do this as a group.
Terry: No, we are going to do this as a group. To me, that gave Paige confidence that you're being coached. She's being coached. Our goal here is to try to find what's best. We're all working that direction.
I mean, in some sense you fell right into the trap by you doing it, by you changing, by having it impact on you. That's what all of a sudden took the company and its employees to a new place. Your own personal development as I've watched you grow, watched Half a Bubble and HaBO Village grow and stuff like that, has been directly tied to your own personal growth and your own personal work and your own personally.
That, you know, I know you knew that.
Terry: You were excited for what happened with Paige, but the bottom line is what's really exciting is what's happening to the whole organization. That's one of the things that I've discovered down through time and actually working with different companies.
Although personal development has many different arms to it, one of the keys to personal development is this addition of this thing called coaching.
Michael: Yeah. Let's talk about it. This is a good transition. That's a buzz word.
Terry: It's totally a buzz word out there. It's actually getting inoculated to the point where people say no thanks.
Michael: I'm imagining several of our listeners right now are rolling their eyes.
Terry: Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Michael: Let's talk about it. What do you mean by that? Your definition is different.
Terry: Yeah. Let's go simple. Let's go down through just a simple definition.
Terry: It's really helped me. Coaching actually draws it out. Mentoring puts it in. A lot of people confuse coaching with mentoring. In some sense, they think a coach is going to be the one that's got the headphones on, get the play, sends it in and it all works. Coaching is about discovery. Whatever somebody discovers, they own. I rarely move into a situation where I don't think a person already has an idea of what it is that needs to be done or what it is that they should do, or even what it is that the core issue is. My role as a coach is to draw that out and to help them realize it. There's some stuff that's already in there and then where necessary, only then add the mentoring piece.
I think what really works especially in a business setting and an organizational setting is a coaching posture with periodic mentoring. Helping people really discover what's really going on inside of them, drawing it out and then periodically where necessary add a few components. Even like we talked about with Kathryn where I could put a name on something I was now hearing that was inside of her. When we got a name on something she knew that came from her, boom. Ownership.
Terry: That's different.
Terry: Than what a lot of people are talking about this idea of coaching, and life coaching and all this kind of stuff. No. We're talking about pulling out from within that person, getting it distilled and adding to it key elements that help move them forward.
Michael: Yeah. That's good. Okay. I'll tell you what. We are near the end of our time and I want to continue this conversation, so what we'll do is let's wrap this episode up and then let's come back and let's continue to talk about in the next episode that issue of putting in and taking out, calling out, coaching, mentoring and probably a few other golden nuggets that we'll get into.
Kathryn: Oh, there might be one or two.
Michael: Thank you everybody for listening today. I just want to encourage you. This is what HaBO Village is about. This is what Kathryn and I are about. This whole idea of creating an environment, creating a company, that allows you to achieve that authentic self of who you are and out of that, when things start to come together, you really start to experience passion. Passion's not something you go looking for. Passion is something that when you are doing all the right things, it comes out of you we believe.
When that starts to happen within the context of your company and you start to see that Passion and Provision, the finance you need for the needs of today and for the dreams and growth of your company for tomorrow, on top of that idea that you are finding joy and fulfillment in what you do, that will spill over into the rest of your company. I'll tell you what, it accelerates so much of the bottom line and the environment in which your company operates. We could go on for a whole other episode about just even those ripples into your financials and how they have a positive effect.
Let's wrap today. Thank you Terry for this episode.
Terry: You bet.
Michael: We'll jump into the next one. This is Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: If you need any help at all, we would invite you to contact us at halfabubbleout.com or go sign up at habovillage.com and get on the wait list because the new membership site for all this lovely training is coming out in September and we're looking forward to having you all join us and jump in and be part of the community.
Kathryn: If you're not careful, you might get to see Terry's face in some bonus video episode.
Terry: Oh no. Let's not go too far.
Michael: All right. Everybody, thank you very much. Have a great day. We'll talk to you soon. Bye, bye.