Michael: Hello, and welcome to the HaBO Village podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the podcast that works with you, business leaders that are running small and medium-sized businesses. Even more specific, I'm looking to reach out and talk to you and you that are owner run businesses because we believe in that. And we want to help you build companies that are full of more profit, purpose and legacy. We call that passion provision and today's podcast is about?
Kathryn: It is about the pain of working for a tyrannical leader.
Michael: A tyrannical leader. When I said, "What do you want to talk about?" She goes "Tyrannical leader." I'm like "What the..." This is great, this is good fodder. Matter of fact, I was thinking about this just recently and so this is going to be a great podcast. Because we're going to talk about this... What you're going to get is, you're going to get some stories today about living under tyrannical leaders, of people who were crazy and people who are unhealthy leaders and at some point, what do you do about it? You don't want to become one of those people. Or maybe you've realized maybe you're a little bit of that person and that's the way you're seen, but you want to change. You want to grow. You want a company that is more fruitful financially and you have more fulfillment in it. That's what we're all about. Building those kinds of companies, because you can have your cake and eat it too in this kind of arena.
Kathryn: Well, and you might also be somebody who is employing someone in a middle management position who potentially is one of those people. So how do you identify that? What do you do about that? Because that can be really scary.
Michael: You're an awesome leader, but you somehow managed to let somebody in the gate, you let a lion into the chicken coop and a fox into the chicken coop.
Kathryn: I was going to say lion, chicken, I don't know if that works.
Michael: There's something that says a lion, but there's a version of that. But the fox or the wolf into the henhouse. And now you're like, Oh, this is not what I thought it was. We have friends who are clients also, who have a company, fairly large, fair amount of people. This has happened a couple of times. They just recently last year hired a guy in a management position. Great, resume, interviewed well, he made it through the interview process, which was a good process and they are a passion and provision company. And yet this guy was so not matching with the culture and the first thing he did was insult one of his peers who was literally, even with him on the flow chart, created a flow chart for a presentation and put this guy underneath him.
Kathryn: It did not go well.
Michael: That started the fuse, if you will, on the explosion of him walking and leaving the building, being asked to leave the building.
Kathryn: Well. And what was interesting about that whole situation is that we've been working with this particular company for a long time, and they have made several mistakes along the way. We all do, we've made our own set of mistakes in hiring, but the fun part with this one was how quickly they were able to figure it out and change it.
Michael: While I was quite well chuffed. Well, we've been with them for over 15 years and this is the second one that was a nightmare hire. The other one was literally 13 years ago. We'd only been with the company a couple of three years and that was a nightmare hire, that one lasted, I think 28 days.
Kathryn: Yes. That was a very quick turnaround. That person managed to implode themselves fairly quickly.
Michael: It was amazing. And we were early on, we didn't know if we would survive. In that context, what could easily happen, why this happens sometimes. So what's the danger? The danger is, they're making a mess of your organization and you could lose very, very, very good people. Another conversation, a story told us last week by Ryan Deiss, a friend of ours owns a company called Digital Marketer. As Ryan says, he's very, very famous in a very, very, very narrow niche. We were at a conference one time with him in California, one week. And then the very next week-
Kathryn: It was his conference. [crosstalk 00:04:01]
Michael: The guy can barely go from his hotel room in the hotel, down to everything without getting just mopped. He's got people watching him and protecting him because he's so famous in these conferences that draw up to 10,000 people. Then we all went across the country to a HubSpot conference, which is a software conference in the marketing space if you don't know that. And there's roughly 20,000 people there and he was teaching a small seminar and we were all out in the midst of having lunch together, all hanging out. And he's like, "I love it here because nobody knows who I am" Really an it guy. Anyway, he says he started backing off on his company and hired a GM to do things that he didn't do well. His partner in the company came to him and said, "if you don't let him go..." Because the way that was structured, this made sense. "If you don't let him go, I'm quitting. I'm out of here." And this is his partner in the business, that was Richard.
Kathryn: Wow.
Michael: And he was like, "Okay, this is not working. I hired the wrong person." Maybe not tyrannical, but it sounds like it was bad enough because that all happened within about three or four months.
Kathryn: Yeah. Well, and we talk a lot in our book about leadership obviously in the inner and the outer game. And we referenced this masterful book called Mastering Leadership-
Michael: That's a great book.
Kathryn: Yeah, where they really outlined the behaviors that happen. So this tyrannical, I'm being dramatic but we had a couple of experiences this week where I was like, "Oh, that's what that looks like." and it's yucky. And so it's this concept of what is it to be a reactive leader, right? Somebody who is... There's three major categories that it falls into. So they're controlling, protecting, or complaining. Those are the three big categories, right?
Michael: Well, and we talk about this a lot, right? There's this healthy perspective of being a leader. We call that creative based on the way these guys have articulated the labels. They've done a really good job of giving us some labels to work with. So we have creative leaders who are vision focused and really love focus. They really care about other people and their vision, purpose driven folks. And so when that happens, you've got a lot of healthy things going on and their focus on their tasks is healthy. But when you have a reactive leader who hasn't matured to that level yet, assuming that they're all there, their leadership skills now and their strengths are actually all become liabilities.
Kathryn: Yeah. Well, and just to kind of flesh out a little bit more of what this looks like was so that you have an ability to potentially self-identify, but also to identify other folks within your organization that may be struggling in this arena. So if you're a controlling leader, if you're reactive falls in that controlling, the behaviors that go with that are autocratic, ambitious... Oh, that's tiny, driven and perfectionist, right. So if you think about those, if somebody is like, "It's my way or the highway, I'm the only person who can be right. I need to be the smartest person in the room." Right. If you're that, and there's an incredible ambition, but there's no humility, no loving people. Those-
Michael: Do we know anybody like that?
Kathryn: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah we do.
Kathryn: Yeah we do.
Michael: Unfortunately. They're not in our organization.
Kathryn: Nope. They're not in our organization.
Michael: Because we do consulting with all these companies, we end up meeting people along the way. We're fortunate. We work with a lot of great companies and we've talked about this on this podcast before, we vet this, if you want to pass your provision company, you've got to know who you serve and who you do not serve and what your values are so you can draw a line. And you vet your customers in so many ways. Certain businesses, it's not nearly as big a deal, but when you're working one-on-one doing services or consulting, you want to have people that you agree with and like. But every once in a while, you'll see this, or what we're really talking about today is how do you spot one of these in your organization or spot one in an interview, and so as we going through this, this is that's one of three times.
Kathryn: The protecting is arrogance, criticism and distancing. So that's the person who just, they can't even make a suggestion without it sounding like a criticism. That was what we experienced in a conversation that we were having this week. Why can't you just suggest something without sounding condescending, or accusing, or frustrating everybody else in the place?
Michael: There was a leader that... We were in one of these meetings with a bunch of leaders, a leader in a large organization, we're talking multiple thousands of employees, and you sit there and you go, "Okay, this person is senior level and even suggesting that there was a mistake on the calendar for the next appointment, sounded like a condescending accusation of inadequacy." And just everybody that was there, almost everybody on the phone call was embarrassed by the way this woman was speaking, because the feedback was that way later. So this is just not okay, it's ugly.
Kathryn: It is. It's uncomfortable for everyone. It's not fair, it certainly does not bring out the best in other people, right? And it causes distress and anxiety and stomach aches and all that kind of thing for the person who that is directed towards. But also for other people, because then the challenge becomes, is anyone going to confront this? And everybody's like, no, it's not my problem I'm not going to confront it. So then all that yucky behind the scenes conversation that happens, that doesn't change anything. It's just very frustrating. So the distancing, you blame, you distance from the problem, you criticize, there's arrogance. And hear me say this, all of us have elements of these issues within us.
Michael: Oh, yeah. They creep up.
Kathryn: So we could meet in a situation where something taps into something deep in me and suddenly I'm like, "Oh no." And then I become a complete jerk. But-
Michael: You told me I do that periodically.
Kathryn: You have a way of finding those places in you sometimes, you're very, very gifted. You're very gifted. But it's the trajectory and the pattern, right? We all mess up at times, we all speak in ways we shouldn't, we all sort of back into behaviors where we think to ourselves later, Oh my gosh, that was not the best me. But if that's a pattern and you're doing that, then this is really dangerous for your organization.
Michael: Okay. What's the third one.
Kathryn: The third one is complying and that's where the person, they're basically... The activities are they're passive, they want to belong more than fix anything, they want to please everybody, they want to make sure that nobody thinks that they're not okay. And then they are very, very conservative. So the whole idea that you would take risks, or you would do anything that you could make a mistake in, in the complying piece is a big deal. So if you think about that goes opposite of being able to make good decisions. So very there. So this person, if we think about the title of this podcast, this person is not going to be the mean tyrannical. They're just going to be the person who completely self protects. And they're not even able to make decisions. They're scared of confronting anyone. So as a leader, stuff can happen and they have no mechanism for addressing concerns, fixing issues, confronting challenges, they're just self protecting their own CYA world.
Michael: So the three major categories again are so that we wrap that up.
Kathryn: So controlling, protecting, or complying. And the controlling and protecting are definitely where you see the really unhappy, mean behaviors that caused me to get very anxious.
Michael: Yeah. Well and you really... Controlling and protecting are definitely those two. And then complying is the third. Complying is important and it can cause a lot of different problems. But what you have, I think it's for us to make sure that we understand these three things before we jump back into really the controlling. Because there's the tyranny right there. Is understanding that first of all, it's not just... There's just a lot of crappy leaders that you can actually group them into these three and you can start to see them when you start to see either bad leaders like immature, reactive.
Michael: Let's not even call them bad because I want to believe that people can grow. If they want to grow, they can grow. They're reactive leaders. They're operating out of that. And one of the questions we always ask is, all of us have a bit of reactive in us. What are those trigger points? Are we working on growing to address those and acknowledge them and figure out how to not be triggered by those buttons? And what percentage of our leadership style are we living in? And quite frankly, the best way to assess is a very painful, hard way to do it. It is to ask, do a 360. Some people hate 360s, but this is like... If you can figure out how to do an anonymous 360.
Kathryn: Yeah, that really does allow for the folks around you to give input. And if you're a small organization, that can get really difficult because-
Michael: Oh, it's tough.
Kathryn: ... it's pretty hard to, if you've got three employees, they're not going to feel very anonymous, but you can also [crosstalk 00:13:12]
Michael: What do you do in that? What do you do when you have such a small place and maybe it's not safe enough to ask, what do you do? You can't ask the whole staff, what do you think you do?
Kathryn: Well, one of the things I would do is go outside the organization and have people who know me well and trust me, or that I trust to give good input. I would go outside like my spouse or...
Michael: If you are probably pretty messy, then you might only have one or two people that can do that. But I think you're right. You're going to be find that one or two people that you can really, really trust that you know is going to, if you want honesty, is going to be honest with you. So we have this controlling person, we're trying really to identify this controlling person. We want to spot them so that either you're listening today and you're a senior leader in the organization and you maybe have management people who are in there that you're afraid are reactive leaders and they're controlling and it's becoming a little tyrannical. Tyranny is reigning, or you're looking for leadership and you just want to want that extra step or clue on how do I spot this? Because you may be going, "I've never hired for this level before."
Michael: Or getting ready to do that again at a new level. And you're going, "I don't want these people. I don't want somebody who's really going to destroy my culture and be negative. I want them to protect my people and be an asset to the team and really help." And everybody goes, yeah, I love them. And I want to follow them and they're competent. And so when we talk about this, what are we looking at for again? The subcategories under controlling Kathryn?
Kathryn: The behaviors?
Michael: Yeah. We've got, these are behaviors or competencies if you will.
Kathryn: Yeah. So perfectionism, driven, ambition and autocratic or the four into that.
Michael: Yeah. So you'll see those behaviors, you'll see those competencies. And those are what will say, it's not what's behind them, but those are the things you'll see. Like autocratic, right? Autocratic is simply, the way I define it, is simply it's my way or the highway. And I don't have conversations, I declare. I think of-
Kathryn: There's no collaboration. There's no, you might have better idea than me. It's just, I am the smartest person in the room, but shut up and listen.
Michael: Off with their head. Queen of hearts in House in Wonderland, or one of the crazy Caesars.
Kathryn: Well, and here's the interesting thing because there's two behaviors or characteristics in here that ambition. I want to hire an ambitious person. I want to hire somebody who's driven to make a difference, I want to... So some of these don't sound difficult. So talk to me about why, why would I want to avoid somebody who's overly ambitious or driven when I'm trying to grow my organization?
Michael: Well, the first thing we want to make sure is we're reminding ourselves that we have fuzzy words, right? So we want to make sure that we're defining, how are we defining this? Ambition's a funny term, because ambition is one of those things that has its own unique meaning contextually. And sometimes it's just tone. Boy, they're ambitious. Or...
Kathryn: Wow, I really love your ambition.
Michael: [crosstalk 00:16:25] They're so ambitious. Sometimes what looks like one type of ambition is the other. And sometimes people miss that or the facade that's being put up. If you've ever met somebody where you know them well enough and you go "Man, close up, those people are, they leave you feeling oaky and outside everybody thinks they're awesome." I grew up in a family like that. That was my dad. Everybody thought he was amazing and at home life was really, really hard. So you have this real issue that nobody wants to talk about that is, the public face can be different. So ambition in this context is, I need to accomplish and I am determined to accomplish. And in this context, because it's driven out of, here's the thing that's really interesting when you're creative, you're driven out of love I said, but when you're in a reactive state and you're this controlling-
Kathryn: You are driven by fear.
Michael: Yes. So when you're driven out of fear, when you see somebody's ambition that's driven out of fear, when it's driven out of self protection and they're trying to make sure that they're okay enough to be... Because they're always climbing, they're always trying to make sure that they're better off. You can spot that kind of ambition when they step on other people, when their solutions aren't, win-win-win they're just win, lose, lose. And they look at it as a zero sum game and oftentimes they don't understand anything different. Now you may be asking this question, well, how does somebody like that ever get in charge? Some of you just started laughing and go, I know I've seen it before. Some of you really are asking that question. How is it? I know at one point I asked that question.
Michael: How do these people actually get into leadership? They actually have... Their style actually allows them to produce benefit. They make money, they get stuff done. They make manufacturing and stuff. And they actually can really succeed in a company because so many people go, I don't care. So many companies reward. They may not say this, but they reward based on what you produce, not how you produced it. They don't care about... The end justifies the means.
Kathryn: Right. You take the typical, one of the really good illustrations of this while it's not necessarily a direct, hardcore leadership is you take a sales team, right? And you've got the guy who's killing it, but he's an asshole.
Michael: Okay, you just said that.
Kathryn: [crosstalk 00:19:07] Well every once in a while it's appropriate.
Michael: It's for PG.
Kathryn: Yeah. It's PG. Right? Suddenly PG 13. So you've got that person and they're killing it and it's really hard, if you're leading that team or you're leading people, it's hard to let a top producer go. If they're being a complete moron and yet they are poisoning your team. And I think that what ends up happening in those organizations and I can't find the specific story in my head, but there's a story that I read recently that's about a team like that, where they finally did let that top producer go because he was so poisonous and everybody else completely rose to the occasion. They filled the gaps in and they were so much happier and they didn't lose money in fact they started making more money because the toxicity had been removed.
Michael: January of 2013 and a half a bubble out.
Kathryn: Yes.
Michael: We had that moment. We finally let a manager go that just wasn't tyrannical, not by any stretch of the imagination, but operated out of fear and operated in two of the other pieces for sure. And we didn't realize, I didn't realize how much it infected all of our staff and I was shocked unanimously to the person in our company. Even the ones that I really thought were going to be very sad she left, we're glad she left. They said the place was just better, brighter, lighter, more enjoyable. They could get more done. Their productivity, it was like it was being shoved under water and as soon as that weight was gone, they popped up to the surface and all of a sudden there was much more going on.
Michael: And that kind of stuff is just so powerful in our organizations. So folks, we're talking about this because as leaders, we brought in some management and there were some good things that happened, but there was a lot of stuff that didn't work. And a lot of times when you're going from, I've never had managers or leaders in between me as the founder or the owner of the company between me and the people who are doing the work. And when you go from that small group of, you're overseeing somewhere between one employee and on the high end, you really start to stretch yourself around 12 to 15 people. I've seen some people go up to 18 or 20, but by very nature of they're being, if they're functioning well, whether they've named the positions or not, they have a leadership that's helping them delegate and do stuff. So you're looking at 12 to 14, 15 people max, and you go to a two-leader level and you need these people to help, you need these people to succeed, but you need to make sure that they're healthy.
Michael: And this, hopefully what we're doing is giving you an idea of some things you can look at and think about as you're interviewing, that you were trying to just use your intuition before but now this gives you something a little bit more specific to [crosstalk 00:22:12]
Kathryn: Well, and if you're working within an organization, you're leading an organization where you suspect that there are folks that are a little bit tyrannical or controlling or not whatever, the goal of leadership is to make the people under you successful. That's one of the primary goals, is to care about the success of the people that you're leading, right? So if you have somebody in your organization who cares way more about themselves and way more about their reputation, their recognition, all of that. And you can tell as you're having those conversations, if they're constantly pointing back to, I did this and I did that and they take credit for anything and everything, if they're hoarding credit, if it's really critical to them that they have 45,000 certificates on the wall of everything they've ever accomplished, those are signs.
Kathryn: So it's an interesting thing, because I was thinking how in an interview process, when you are asking people to tell you about themselves and to tell you what they've accomplished or what they're proud of, how can you tell the difference between somebody who is really going after they're lauding their own praises, really singing their own tune, and is very afraid, versus somebody who has achieved an incredible amount, but they don't have as much to prove. They're not trying that hard. How do you tell?
Michael: These are the ways that I'm thinking about it, right? Side note or disclaimer, I am not a professional headhunter, I only play one on TV. Okay. So way more smart people because they interview out there that interview every day, but we've done really well over the years also. And one of the things I'm looking for is what Pat Lencioni says humble, hungry, smart. So I'm looking for questions, like what are the new questions I have for hiring is, what do you want out of your career? What are you looking for out of your career and what are you looking for out of a new position and potentially this position? What do you want out of it? Well, you'll start to hear, is it qualitative or quantitative? I want to make X amount of money. I want to enjoy my job.
Michael: I want to do those kinds of things. So you start to get a feel for how does that apply towards any of this? Especially if they're in leadership. Well, one of the things, as you start hearing some of those standards and you're like, "Is it a qualitative measurement? And can they do some qualitative?" You got to get enough work done and you have to hit numbers and stuff like that. And then I find that people like this, they're actually not really good at hiding, the problem is it's hard for people to understand that they're actually there so that listening to them and spotting it is the tough part. Because if you know what to look for, they're out there. So right off the bat, you can ask a question, so fantastic, you really want to be the best, you want to do more than anybody else.
Michael: You want to do this. You want to hit these numbers. If they're starting to say, "I want to hit my numbers, where's my bonuses and how do I do this? And how do I look good here?" Then you go, "Okay, totally. I think that's fantastic." So I would ask straight out, where's the line. How do you know where the line is? Because there's always a fuzzy line for us to cross in what we have to do to accomplish that. How do you assess that? And what I'm surprised at is most people in this realm, they actually say stuff that is yellow flags, if not red flags. Because when you just straight up go, "How do you know what's enough? How do you know where you've crossed the line." Or in business versus personal life.
Michael: If they give you an answer and then you say, "Please give me a situation." And if they ever give you anything that smacks of, it's just business. Well, this is different, it's business. And I'll ask, what's the difference between the line you're willing to cross in personally here and, and your personal life and then in work to do that. What are you willing to do? What are you willing to sacrifice to make those numbers? Oh boy, if they're in a hiding, they're not going to hide long. Because you'll also see them squirm because if they give you a Pat answer, dig a little bit more, that's one thing. And then another thing I'm looking for is, I'm listening for how much they talk about other people, and how much they rip on other people.
Kathryn: Right. One of the things I was thinking is if you were to ask somebody, "Hey, tell me about some goal that you achieved in your prior job and why you were proud of it." Is everything they say about them, is there ever anyone else who gets credit? Is there ever anyone else that comes into the play as somebody who helped contribute to that? Or is it all about them?
Michael: Yeah. So here's a scenario in my head. I like that one. So I'm going to talk about both these scenarios on both sides of this coin. I'm going to start with, tell me a situation in your last company, you were successful in that company, right? Yes.
Kathryn: They fired me.
Michael: They fired me. So tell me a situation where you had an objective and a goal and because of your team, you weren't able or you weren't able to accomplish that. Why weren't you able to accomplish it? Forget the team part. Tell me about a goal that you weren't able to accomplish and why.
Kathryn: Is there blame? Is there...
Michael: Yes. Here's-here's, or they're going to... and you leave it that open-ended. Now, if they say "I don't have them." Okay. Really? Nothing? You accomplish everything? Everything I've... Because I picked my goals very carefully and I'm picking my goals. Now that might just say they're safe. I've done everything I've never risked enough.
Kathryn: Super conservative.
Michael: But let's say they're like, "Oh no, I've killed them all." Oh, okay. Great. So let's pick one of those great ones and tell me why. And listen to how much they talk about themselves versus somebody else. And the other people that contributed to the team. And if they don't mention the other people, ask them straight up. Well, who were the people that were most instrumental to what you did and how they helped you and let them talk. I've had people say nobody.
Michael: I've had people say, "Oh," and they start... Because they're in an interview, right? So they're not stupid. They're trying to figure out what you want to hear. It's amazing how many people look at me when I'm asking them questions and they're trying to figure out what I'm asking. Because they don't know what I'm coming from, which in those kinds of places I like. And other times that's not healthy, but in interviews you don't want to give away all your cards yet. You want to hold them close to your vest.
Michael: So when you say that, there's this process that they start talking and you can hear them say, because remember the question is, well, tell me about other people that helped you. Either nobody or they find somebody and start talking about them, but you can hear they're like, "Well, Joe helped me or Susie helped me, but really she did didn't do much. She just kind of did this one thing." And all of a sudden, they say yes. And then they start backing up on their position and minimizing it so they can build themselves up more. Those are the kinds of things you start in this reactive leadership type of role.
Kathryn: Well, and those same kinds of questions can actually be posed from a leader to a manager.
Michael: Absolutely. [crosstalk 00:29:53]
Kathryn: Something that else that was going on because again, how do they credit their team or not? So there's a lot of different things, but mostly today we just wanted you to be aware as we bring this in for a landing. We want you to be aware that there are specific behaviors that you can begin to tuck in and understand when you're looking at your own leadership. And that question, that self-awareness question of, am I leading, especially in this moment, in this situation, am I leading from love or leading from fear? That is an incredibly powerful question.
Michael: I have to ask myself often and sometimes the answer is I am ready to make a decision and I can tell I'm making it based on fear. And if I didn't ask the question, I'm just caught up in the emotion and I don't realize it.
Kathryn: Yeah. And so when you're able to say, "I'm thinking about this out of fear. Okay, now let me pull back and figure out if I can find a different path that allows me to lead better."
Michael: Absolutely. So as we talked today about the whole issue, really today's core is how do you spot tyranny leadership and what do you do about it? And there's these other types of reactive leadership that we talked about, but we're really talking today about that. And how do you really, for those of you building passion provision companies, how do you think about it yourself and make sure that your... If that's one of the places where you default in a stress mode, how to think about it and continue to go, "Okay, how do I grow?" Because if you're pursuing a passion and provision company, you're actually working and doing the self work. You're trying to grow, you're continuing to grow, you're on the journey and that's what we need to be, is altogether on the journey. And then if you've got a middle management, something middle management, a director, or some kind of leader in your company, you want to make sure that they're not falling into this place of reacting, and they're really successful in their department but it's because they're running it with an iron fist and you don't want that.
Michael: Or how do you make sure that the new people coming in, give yourself a better chance of spotting that in potentially a new candidate. And in the midst of that, you've got a better understanding hopefully today, a little bit better understanding of passion and provision in the context of leadership and this whole idea of spotting tyrannical leadership, and how do you deal with it? What do you do, and today's really a discussion. It's the front opening of a discussion on this? Take it further. Anything else you want to add?
Kathryn: No, I don't think so. I just really want to implore you to think and watch and listen and learn, right? Both personally, so that you're actually doing the hard work and continuing to grow and asking yourself the question on a regular basis. Is this fear or love what's happening here? But then also really paying attention, because I think as leaders, once we hand something off, it's easy just to assume everything's running fine and not really have our pulse on different things. So just beginning to really pay attention and listen, to make sure that you have not accidentally placed one of these folks in a position of authority within your company.
Michael: That's pretty much the topic for today. And really our goal is to give you something to think about, something to chew on and really be helpful. Because it's not help unless it's perceived as help. We say that all the time. So I just want to say thank you very much for joining us today. Hit the subscribe button, tell somebody else about us. If this is a valuable to you, we'd really love to reach more people and help more people actually get out of the tyranny of running a company that's not a passion and provision company and move them more into a place where they're financially profitable and growing and emotionally fulfilled. And then create jobs inside that company the same. I'm Michael Redman and I'm Kathryn Redman. This is the HaBO Village podcast. Thank you for joining us. Have a great week and keep growing.
