Michael: Hello everyone, and welcome to the HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And today we have Karen Briscoe as our guest. Oh, you're going to like this interview, it's going to be fun. We met Karen recently and we were on her podcast and had a great conversation, and we were like, "Well, how do we keep this conversation going?" So welcome to the podcast, Karen.
Karen: Well, I'm thrilled to be part of the Half a Bubble Out Village, and to be visiting with you and your community today.
Kathryn: Thank you.
Michael: Well, it's nice to have you in the village.
Kathryn: Yeah. So, I'm going to tell you just the very briefest of briefs about Karen, because we just wanted her to unpack a little bit of her story today. So, Karen has written quite a few books, has done a lot of work in the real estate world, she's the principal owner of the Huckaby Briscoe Conroy Group, HBC, with Keller Williams. The way that we met Karen was she's the host of the 5 Minute Success Podcast, which is a really highly ranking, number one on Overcast, as the most recommended in the business category. She interviews really cool people, including The Redmans, and often gets to come on other podcasts that focus on entrepreneurial success and motivation.
Michael: And time is a big focus. So, Karen, where do we even start? Okay, first of all, give our guests a little background on how do you tell people about your background and how you got to where you are today?
Karen: Well, I like to say I started out with dirt in Dallas working for Trammell Crow, doing residential lot development, so bought land, put in streets and utilities and sell lots to home builders. And my husband's career... we married in Dallas, had our two children there, took us to the Northern Virginia Washington DC metro region, almost three decades ago, so it's been a while and we-
Kathryn: Folks, she's not in her 20s.
Karen: I'm not in my 20s, do the math. I was a primary caregiver for our children, a stay at home mom, for about a dozen years. And I share that because I want to share the message that you can start at any time. I had this limiting belief that if I took out time in my career, then I would lose out on all sorts of opportunities. I have been able to go back into the workforce, first of all, part-time and then full-time, in 2009 when our son left for... or 2006, when our son left for college. I met with success in the residential space. I had gone back in, to the commercial side, because I thought that's what I wanted to do, and I was at the sales and engineering warehouse, offices of Nextel, doing their real estate. And I found it to be like, once you've seen one sales engineering warehouse office, you've seen them all. And it was very... it didn't have anything beyond just this cookie cutter kind of business. So, it was during the tech burst, and I don't know if you remember the tech burst-
Kathryn: Oh, yeah.
Karen: [inaudible 00:03:04] early 2000's burst-
Michael: Oh, do we ever.
Kathryn: We're in California baby, come on.
Karen: Okay, you know that one. Well, I share this because I've been through a number of market cycles and I've learned something from each one of them. And what I realized then was there's no money in disposition, and so when they were in disposing of assets and I was working for The Staubach Company at Nextel, and they lost the account and I wanted to go work for Nextel, and I was like, "I don't really like this, anyhow, so what else is there out there?" And I had my real estate license, but I had never looked at the residential side and someone said, "Well, why don't you just try it and see if you like it?" I was like, "I don't know," there's this perception in the commercial that the residential people do all the soft stuff, the commercial people do the really hard work-
Kathryn: There's the heavy lifting-
Karen: Yeah, negotiation.
Kathryn: ... because they're bigger buildings.
Karen: Yeah, market knowledge-
Kathryn: Bigger companies.
Karen: ... strategy, they think, right?
Karen: And people on the soft side are all about relationships and emotions and turns out I actually have both, I'm like [Sears 00:04:03] I have both [inaudible 00:04:06]. And so I met with success very rapidly. And when people meet with success very rapidly, people want to know how you do it, right?
Karen: And I got the attention of the top agent in our... well, actually she was number 10 in the nation, but also in our market area, she asked me to join her, which I did. And then I became her partner in '06 and sadly she passed away in '08. That year, you may remember that one, in '08, that was the year of the financial market crash and real estate market crash. And so I had been through a number of market corrections in savings and loan crisis in Texas and the-
Michael: Oh yeah.
Karen: Remember that [inaudible 00:04:50] I had some muscle memory from that one.
Kathryn: Yeah, I bet you did.
Karen: And so the benefit of muscle memory, you pay attention to it, is I learned how to get expenses in line very quickly, with revenue made a lot of challenging decisions. And first of all, survive the market, which a lot of people did survive, but not everybody lost or lost her partner at the same time, so I had this double whammy. And then in '09, set about to rebuild and my business partner, Lizzy Conroy, who I've been with, she's been with me since '09 and I rebuilt the company, well, again, people want to know how you do that, right? Because you go through those challenging situations. And that led to a lot of speaking and coaching and training. And in that messaging, there seemed to be a voice I had that people said, "Well, you should write a book." And I kept thinking I didn't have enough time to write a book.
Karen: And I also heard from people that they felt like they didn't have enough time, that they... to invest in their personal business development, and that's where the whole idea of the 5 Minute Success came in was that, well, I'd say, "Well, can you invest five minutes a day?" And everybody said they could, and it turns out that is actually proven because restricting and limiting time can actually make you more efficient and effective. People have oftentimes when they think it's going to take a lot of time, then they don't do anything, right?
Karen: Because they just feel that overwhelm, but if you do small amount of time, you can have an impact. And now that I've been on this time journey for the last five plus years, I'd like to share this quote by Lao Tzu says, "Time is a created thing. To say, 'I don't have time' is like saying, 'I don't want to.'"
Kathryn: That's good.
Karen: So, that really unpacks what people's motives are, right?
Karen: In fact, I think I heard from recently on another podcast, I was talking about... Oh, it was John Lee Dumas and he said that when people say they don't have time, that they're really not being authentic, right?
Karen: They're using time as a...
Kathryn: An excuse, essentially yeah.
Karen: Excuse, right, it's not true because we all have the same amount of time. So, just to call it what it is. And when I was sharing about that, I said, "I didn't have enough time to write a book," I had that epiphany. I was actually in a coaching program with some other women and we have been working together for about six months and then had gone on a retreat. And that last day of the retreat, we're supposed to share what was stopping us from doing what we said we wanted to do. And my idea was to write the book and I had this just total epiphany, this light bulb go off. And they actually, to this day, all remember the moment that's how-
Kathryn: Oh, that's neat.
Karen: ... significant it was, I was like, "Well, the only one stopping me is me." And I found that actually to be empowering, because before, I'd been waiting for other people to change, or the market to change, or circumstances to change, when I realized that I had the power to change. The whole Wayne Dyer quote of, "Change the way you look at things, and the way you look at things changes," I felt empowered that I could change. And that's what led me on this journey over the last five plus years.
Kathryn: So, is the first book that you wrote the Real Estate Success in 5 Minutes a Day, was that your first one?
Karen: It is.
Karen: Because that's my expertise and what I found in writing that book, it's a daily devotional for real estate agents although anybody can read it.
Kathryn: I love that.
Michael: Okay, I think that's really cool.
Kathryn: That's really cool.
Karen: Yeah. Well, I had this epiphany, another... I had several epiphanies, but I was like, "Well, what if I package the information differently?" There's lots of books on real estate, I was like, "Well, if the challenge is time, if they don't have time to read, well then if I could package it in small enough increments..." Well, that's what a daily reader is, right?
Karen: And it's not usually used for this type of genre, it's usually in motivational, devotional, but I combine the two, like peanut butter and chocolate mixed, Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. But there's lot of lessons that came out of that, one is that or I have discoveries that I have is that, that actually is very powerful. Having a small amount every day can have a number of effects, it can be a domino, a knock over, it could be a building up like a snowball, it could be... sometimes they're exponential, right? You'll have an idea and it'll just make it a paradigm shift, or some of them are like a ripple, you throw the pebble in the pond and it ripples out. So, it's actually a very powerful concept, I didn't know it at the time, but I've discovered that along with a lot of other discoveries, but that when I originally came up with the idea, I just was trying to break down the limiting belief that they didn't have in our time to read a book.
Kathryn: That's amazing
Michael: When you look back over the last, well let's see, it's five years since you wrote the book?
Michael: So, let's just take that for a moment. When you look back over the last five years and you just ponder on it, what surprises you the most about what happened in this journey?
Karen: Oh, well how much it has changed the way I look at things. Well, for that first epiphany, that it's me, and I can change, that was very powerful.
Michael: And that still continues to just amaze you, huh?
Karen: Yes, it does. There was actually three epiphanies in a row, the next one was the one of urgency. I was reading the book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. So, she wrote Eat, Pray, Love, that's kind of what she's most famous.
Kathryn: Oh yeah.
Michael: Oh yeah.
Karen: But in the Big Magic, she talks about how their ideas in the universe and they will come to people and if they don't act on them, then the universal will say, "Well, thank you very much. I'm going to go find somebody else." Particularly if it's time, it's common. And I'm sure you've had this happen, right? Where you've gotten an idea, and you didn't do anything about it. And then you see somebody else does and you go, "Well, that was my idea," that's kind of how the Big Magic is, that these ideas are out there and so I had urgency for the first time. Because before I was like, "Oh, well, I'll do that when..." right? When I have more time, I get the business... And I had this urgency that I needed to do it now, that was a game changer.
Karen: And then the third epiphany that just really has stayed true is this idea of habit formation to change behavior. So, I read another book, I like to read books, by Gretchen Rubin. So, she's famous for The Happiness Project.
Michael: Yeah, oh yeah.
Kathryn: Yeah. That's a great book.
Karen: And she's been a guest on the 5 Minute Success Podcast, because I just was so impacted by her book that the... what she found was, she researched people, what they said would make them happy. And many people knew what would make them happy, but for some reason they weren't doing it, I'm just like, "Okay, so why? And what could you do about it?" So she wrote another book called Better Than Before, about how to change or to do what you say you want to do, right?
Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Karen: How to do habits. And that habit book had one idea that I embraced. And it's this time hack of during daylight savings time and the fallback where the time or hour, to use that time to write. And I share with people that you don't have to wait for daylight savings time to do the time hack because you do it every time you change time zones, right? You could choose to do it at any time. And that was a very pivot moment as well, because back to, "Okay, I feel empowered to change, but I don't know how to change," right?
Michael: That's a very good point, yeah.
Karen: And so it gave me a tool to use that I have used in multiple ways. But those three things were what started me on the trajectory. And then the podcast came out about... I like to say my book has taken me so many places. All the places I will go because of my book, but the podcast-
Michael: Go Dr. Seuss.
Karen: Yes, it's my Dr. Seuss philosophy of life. The podcast came about because as an author, oftentimes you're authority, and I'm an authority in real estate, so the authorship of my book gave me more authority. And I would be a guest on other podcasts that I saw a correlation of book sales and I was like, "Okay, so I can have a podcast, and have amazing conversations." It is two different sides of the mic though.
Karen: You all are... have a podcast in your own podcast.
Karen: And so I find both to have value from different sides. But the other amazing thing that's happened out of this, is I had this perception that if I'd focused on things were meaningful to me or creative... in my... and we could get into this whole, that's another whole book. But that I would be taking away from my productivity. So, productivity is always my calling card. I could be very productive, and I could make things happen and get things done. But to me, creative endeavors, contribution endeavors, like having a podcast and giving a lot of content and value out would take away from that and what I found is actually the opposite of impact, more so because I have more energy because I'm achieving at a higher level and that's where the whole idea of the Flip Time Love Life came about.
Michael: I like that.
Kathryn: Okay. So, is it fair to assume that during these last five years, when you've been flipping time and figuring out how to be more creative and actually put energy and effort toward the things that you're passionate about, you've also still been running your company, and-
Karen: Yes absolutely.
Kathryn: ... lead people and doing all... Okay, so what I would love to hear is how did your team, the people that you're leading, how did they process your pulling back and doing an investing time in the things that feel like their contribution for you?
Michael: Because that has no relevance in our life, at all.
Kathryn: No relevance, just curious how that's working. How did that work for you? Talk to me about that.
Karen: Well, I remember coming back from that retreat and visiting with my husband and my team. And they're like, "Yeah, Karen, whatever," I don't know if they really even had any idea what was going to happen, I didn't have any idea what was going to-
Kathryn: They probably didn't believe that you would do anything.
Karen: Yeah. Then I was like, "Sure Karen, It's just another one of your ideas."
Kathryn: You'll get over it.
Karen: But that's the amazing thing over the last five plus years is that... and this is where the Flip Time comes in, our business has doubled.
Karen: And so productivity wise actually has increased substantially because I was reaching a point of burnout, I honestly was. I was at that point, almost, or a little bit over a dozen years into my career and I have amazing clients, customers, and my business partner and the people that I work with and my staff. But it takes a toll, a lot of businesses do, entrepreneurs and salespeople. And so what I saw with other people in my industry or profession, when they're operating at a high level, so I'm considered a mega agent, just to give you perspective in 2020, our team sold a hundred million dollars in real estate, and that's pretty much three salespeople. That's a very high level of production.
Michael: That's a lot of volume.
Karen: It's a lot of real estate and we have a very sophisticated clientele, because our average sales price is a million dollars. So, we have clients who are very high levels in their professional lives and because of that, they're often have a high level of expectation. And so time is of the essence, everything, real estate is, time is of the essence and so it can lead to burnout, it really can. And so what I saw other people doing is they were getting into ancillary areas of real estate, or they were building teams, building larger real estate operations. And those are valid and... or they were going more into the management or coaching, that's what a lot of people do. But I was like, "Yeah, I still want to sell houses, it's not that, I love working with the people," I have a real passion for that. But I wanted something else that will give me energy, energize me. And-
Michael: You mentioned burnout, if I can jump in here.
Michael: So, one of the things that if I'm sitting here listening to this podcast and I have no control over asking questions, I'm thinking, "Okay, the woman is super busy, she's one of these type A's-"
Kathryn: Energizer bunny.
Karen: You think?
Michael: "... and now she's talking about time," and what it could sound like is all you're doing is shoving in more stuff into your schedule. And so talk to us about this idea that this 5 Minutes a Day, these time hacks, are you still getting enough sleep? Do you feel like you have enough time with your husband? Do you get to see your kids? What's the quality of life like, or... do you know what I'm going at right now?
Karen: Absolutely, I hear that. Because I hear that a lot when people ask about this whole time thing, right? So, they're thinking it's time management, like there's a balance beam, if you will, or a teeter-totter like one side is life and one side is work, and when life is good, then work is bad or down, and when work is up, then life is down and... you said their perception too, you had a lot of paradigm shifts, the whole change the way you look at things. So this is how I have come to see it, you may remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs with the pyramid.
Kathryn: Very well.
Karen: Okay. So, the basic needs are your physical needs, and that really became very evident that people are basically, they go back to that in times of crisis. During the early days of COVID remember what everybody was in pursuit of was toilet paper.
Kathryn: Toilet paper.
Karen: Yeah. So, that's where people's priorities were, they go back right to the basic. And then the next one of safety, security. Well, that's still really, people are still very conscious of safety and security, more so during the time of COVID than ever before. And then you have your esteem needs, your relationship needs. And at the top, you have self-actualization. So, self-actualization is the flow, your zone of genius is what Gay Hendricks calls it, it's bliss, it's what in the Heroine's Journey language of Joseph Campbell. The idea that you're doing meaningful work, Joseph Campbell calls it, "The call to adventure," I call it any call, your call to [inaudible 00:20:36] your call to contribution. Whatever is your calling, right?
Karen: It's very unique to each person. And how they answer that calling, it's kind of like that Big Magic, are you going to listen when it comes or are you going to keep pushing it away? Because what a lot of people do, myself included, is I kept saying, "I will do that when," and what happens if you run out of time? What happens if you get to the top of the pyramid and you run out of time and you don't get to the things that are meaningful? And so that's where the idea of flipping the pyramid, it's not time management, because it really isn't time you're managing, right? Because time is a created thing.
Karen: What you're doing is when you flip the pyramid, is you focus first on the things that are meaningful and add that to you and the people you care about, but what are going to be the most meaningful to you? And then everything else starts to come in line. And this is my belief of why, if you think about it, when you're living true to your self, your highest and best self, that's what we call it real estate. You want to have the highest and best value or the usage. When you're living to that, then you're being authentic, and you're going to be in congruent with your identity and what you're called to do. So you're going to have the best relationship with yourself, and if you have the best relationship with yourself, you're going to have better relationships with other people, and when you have better relationships with other people, that truly is where the esteem comes in and then if you think about safety and security, well, what better place to be safe and secure as with yourself, right? Because it goes with you everywhere you go.
Kathryn: As it turns out, yeah.
Michael: Yes it does.
Karen: Yeah. No matter where you are, you're there.
Kathryn: Always. Michael used to say he's the center of the universe, because no matter where he goes, he's right in the center of it.
Karen: And if you think about it, if you can be safe and secure no matter where you are, in whatever circumstances, then you are at the highest level you can be, in yourself right? And then truly your physical needs come, it follows, it all follows. Because if you are living the life, if you're making the contributions you were designed to create, you're probably going to be the most productive person and whatever definition of productivity is for you, that you could ever be, because you're going to be doing what you were led to do, what you're called to do.
Kathryn: Well, the other thing that I really think is cool and one of the things we've talked about is that when you are making the contribution that you were designed to make, when you're walking in your gifts, skills, talents, you're absolutely functioning in the way that is your best you. Then the other thing that happens is the people around you are so... they celebrate that, right? It's like when we see somebody performing, who's very talented and everything in us just goes, "Oh my gosh, that's amazing." So, when you're actually walking in those places and doing the things you're called to do, the response from people is so... they're encouraged by it, because it reflects the best way you present yourself and it's a good gift.
Karen: Well, if you think about it, from what you're saying, and this is what I found is true, you're actually then truly giving them permission for them to be them.
Kathryn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Karen: Right. Because if you're living inauthentically, then they're going, "Okay, I got to keep this mask on," and I'm not talking about the kind that keep the germs from [inaudible 00:24:04] I'm talking about the mask like, "I'm not really going to tell you who I am," because then if I did, then I am going to risk perhaps. And so what I found is the more... So you're asking, how does it actually work, Michael? And I do encourage people to start small and buildup, because sometimes if you just go full in, it may freak people out or they may go, "What happened?" But if you start small and build up, first of all, you'll start experiencing the benefits of it. And by when you experience the benefits of it, you'll want to do more, and when you do more, then it'll start to do that, either ripple effect, snowball effect, domino effect, or you could have even an exponential impact.
Karen: But the most people get caught up with, "I don't even have time to do that." So you have to break down that barrier, that limiting belief, and help them see that they can start small. And that is proven habit formation it's-
Michael: And then it doesn't suck, when you're doing it properly, in its right order, it doesn't... you're not trying to squeeze 25 hours into a 24 hour day. It's actually a better use of the time and our listeners can't see you right now, but you look like a very rested person who isn't on the edge of burnout. And I we've coached many people who are on the edge of burnout, so you tend to learn how to recognize them.
Karen: Well, and I have been there, so I know what that looks like too. And I still live a very full life, I always live all the way out to the edges, I don't like leave a whole lot of margin. What I find though is that when I keep recentering, then the other things just, I've become better at letting the peripherals go. Because the thing is really no one really can do everything, you can't there is-
Michael: No, there's not.
Karen: ... [inaudible 00:26:03] physical limitations, right? But I have also gotten better at allowing people to do things.
Michael: Good for you, well done.
Karen: I used to be a control freak, and so releasing that because I find again that when I encourage my energy... And there's another great quote it's, "Energy, not time, is the fundamental currency of high-performance," that's Tony Schwartz, and I'd sometimes say, creativity, not time, is the fundamental currency of high-performance, because the creative energy actually can have much more impact. If you think about a lot of inventions and ideas that become actual time savers, they came out of a moment of real need. So if you get that to that crisis, it's an opportunity and danger. So if you find the way it's an opportunity, those are where I've had learned and grown and become better than before, more than the times when everything was going, in my view, smoothly.
Michael: Absolutely. Okay, I want to, as we're swinging around towards the end here, we have a few more minutes, and I really... I've had a thought on my mind for like the last half hour. So in the introduction and all of that, you talked about taking the time out of your career and being a stay at home mom for twelve-ish years. And I'd like to talk about that because it's become more and more interesting to me over the last half hour. Because of time, people are afraid that if they take the time out, they're going to lose on their career. If they take the time out, or if they don't take the time out, they might lose on the quality of relationship with their kids or whatever that looks like for them of raising kids and everything else. You made the decision to stop working, be a stay at home mom, and then go back. And as I look at the arc of your life now, that didn't impact one iota, the fullness and success you had in business. Are you still glad you did that?
Karen: I am because my mother, and this is not a stay at home mom working mom because my business partner is a working mother and she is amazing at it and I have such great respect for it. And I looked back and I think I may have been a better mother had I worked because for several reasons, one, it wasn't my natural skill with young children. And second of all, because I really didn't have good esteem, because I felt like I was giving up my career and giving up my identity and I wish I would have changed the way I looked at it and seen it for what it turned out to be and that was a season and that I could go on and be successful later in life. And that's why I share that in my story, because if I can do it, then other people can do it too, for whatever is in your life, and you're taking out a season or a time period, you can go back in and do well at a career.
Karen: So, that's one reason why I share it. The other reason I share it is because I don't have any regrets on it, that I recognize was the right decision for me and our family at the time. And so, but I feel even the fact that I have met with such a high level of success that I've had many people share that that is almost a game changer for them too, because when they saw that I could do it, then they felt like, "Oh, well, I could do that too." Because my generation, I went to a woman's college and it was in the late '70s and we were all told that we were supposed to go out there and win one for the women and have a career and that it would be okay and we would be able to do both. And I couldn't see how to do that, my husband's career required too much travel and we weren't near family. I just couldn't see how to do it, I couldn't see my way to do it.
Kathryn: So if you're being honest, how long did it take you to get over feeling like you were giving up your identity to stay home with your kids? How long were you mad about that? I'm just curious.
Karen: Oh yeah, like the whole time. And mostly because I didn't have anybody showing me how I could do it afterwards or later. I remember there was a quote by Barbara Bush and I think she said something, "You always can have a career, but you won't always have your young children," and this is not to bash people who work, trust me, that's not it. But I wish somebody would have said, "You can have that period of time and be home with your children. And it was with financial, I don't want to say hardship, it was challenging, because with my husband's career, I ended up being alone a lot, even though I was married. And financially we could make it work, but it wasn't like make it work and do a lot of fun things too, and also because I just never felt like it was my skillset, I am definitely a business woman, that's my skillset.
Karen: So, for lots of reasons, I just wish somebody would have said, "Yeah, you can do it, you can do it again later. It's fine, you're smart, you're resourceful, you're creative. You're whole, the way you are right now. And if you stay home right now, you will figure out what to do when you get to that point, you want to go back to work." It's probably going to be different, the world changes so rapidly, it's not going to be the same as it was. But because you have those skills inherent in you, you will be able to do it.
Kathryn: That's cool.
Michael: What year was your oldest born?
Karen: Drew was born in 88, so he's 30... what does that make him? 33.
Michael: So, you basically stayed home during the '90s
Karen: Yes. And then part of that was market-driven too, if you think about it, there was recession in '91, so I reentered the workforce... Well, there was 9/11, really had a big impact. I like to say I think I've been through five recession/market corrections, learned something from each one of them. But the message I just want to share with people is you can start today, whatever it is that you thought you couldn't do, you can, you just start today and then you put those habits, those steps in place and change the way you look at it and you can have which life of your dreams. That's one of my affirmations. I love the life I have right now as I create and co-create the life of my dreams. It's a both and, it's not an or, I could love right now and I can create for the future.
Michael: I liked that message completely. I think that's a great place to land.
Kathryn: Yeah, it's good.
Michael: Karen, thank you so much for coming on and sharing today, this was delightful.
Karen: Well, it was awesome to be with the Half a Bubble Out Community and with you both on the other side of the mic. So thanks for having me.
Kathryn: And if people want to find you, Karen, where's the best place for them to take a visit?
Karen: So, the 5 Minute Success Community is all the number 5, minute, success, so that's website. Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, you want to be sure and check out your episode as well, and then the books are... And Facebook and all the social media and everything. Books are available on Amazon or wherever books are sold or if you want to-
Kathryn: Wherever books are sold.
Karen: Wherever books are sold, but mostly Amazon. And I do take a limited number of coaching clients. And if you have real estate needs, I can help out with that as well and my company name for that is HBC Group, kw.com, and we are in the Northern Virginia Washington DC metro region, but I can... I've helped people find good referral partners. So, if that's of interest, then I can help on that arena as well.
Michael: As you would expect from Karen, she has lots of opportunities to help and serve also. Again, thank you and everybody listening today, thank you so much for visiting. This is our opportunity on this podcast to continue to encourage, support, cheer you on, and equip you for running your company and finding that passion and provision in life, so blessings on you. Thank you for joining us today, I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: Have a great week. Bye-bye.