Michael: Hello, and welcome to the HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Katheryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the podcast that helps businesses like yours develop and grow, so you can develop the whole leader for the whole business and see a life that you've never seen before. Today, we have a great guest on. Katheryn, who do we have with us?
Kathryn: Well, I am happy to introduce John Jantsch. John is a marketing consultant, speaker, and author of Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine, The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur, and The Ultimate Marketing Engine. He's also the founder of Duct Tape... Wow, that's easy for me to say. The MacGyver... no. The Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network, which trains and licenses independent consultants and agencies to use his methodology. So John, with that, I don't know, is there any tie to MacGyver in the Duct Tape story? Or am I just imagining that?
John: No, there very much is. I mean, if nothing else, it's just people's strange affection for duct tape. That's why the whole MacGyver reference makes sense, because people thought that was great. And I think it's really the point of the metaphor really, is simple, effective, affordable. Doesn't always have to look pretty. It just has to work. I think most small business owners can relate to that point of view.
Kathryn: That's awesome.
Michael: We met this last year, and had a great conversation then. And so this was, for those of you listening today, we had a phenomenal conversation with John and this is an opportunity for you to hear about his life and what he's doing and the thoughts in his new book. But more than anything else, just enjoy a really good conversation about marketing and perspective because he's a seasoned pro. He's been at this a long time. And so I think we're going to have a good time today. All right.
Kathryn: Well, and one of the things I love is that John serves small and medium-size businesses, and so that is our heart and our heartbeat too. So, fun to just have a conversation with a shared target audience, because I think you're going to bring a lot of value to our listeners, so welcome aboard.
Michael: So my first question is just really quick, is how do you define small and medium-size business? Because I find that it's always a tricky thing when we say that to people. "Well, what do you mean?" It's like, "Well, there's this number. There's this number."
John: Yeah, I mean, part of the challenge is the Small Business Administration is probably best known for their definition of small business, which in their book is any business with less than 500 employees, which I think there's a lot of range in there, quite frankly. So I mean, for me, in some ways it's maybe a point of view, it's more of a stage, and we work with small businesses that are $50 million. We work with small businesses that are just trying to top that million dollar.
John: In a lot of ways, what they're trying to achieve is the same. You have a different set of problems. You get 10 employees, you've got a different set of challenges than if you are on your own. You top $50 million, you probably have a different set of challenges than if you are predominantly selling all the work yourself. So I think there's a lot of range in the world of small business, but I guess the sweet spot for us is that business that is either at, or looking to get to $10 million.
Michael: I like it. I like it a lot.
Kathryn: Good.
Michael: One of the things that we have focused on a lot is owner-run companies, which is most small businesses, but I've realized over time, we're not looking for companies that are small businesses owned by investment portfolios or anything like that. Because they're fun to work with.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I've said all along, the reason I've stuck with this audience is I think there are equal parts... It's equal parts terrifying and gratifying to work or get a result for the person who's actually writing that check or at least is responsible for whether or not that check gets written.
John: And I think that that's really what charges me up is this whole, I think opening up a small business is awesome. I love doing it. I think it's the most freeing thing in the world to be able to live the life that you want. And I love serving that market because a lot of small business owners are getting the life sucked out of them. And I feel like even though what I sell or the service I provide is called marketing services, I think in a lot of cases, we help business owners gain a level of control back of their marketing and ultimately, their business too.
Michael: So what do you think is... and from your experience, it's been draining the life out of them the most, or what are the top few things that are?
John: Well, probably the biggest thing of the last 10 years is just the whole shift to digital that's gone on in the platform of the week that they're told by somebody they have to now be on or master content, and the fact that that's really air now in marketing. But it's also the hardest thing to produce effectively.
John: I mean, it used to be that you ran some ads, you had a phone, you answered the phone and you went out and called on somebody and you sold some work. And the thing that's changed the most of course, in marketing, and I think this is what gets lost in all the conversation about tactics and tactic obsession is that a lot of things have changed in terms of the tools and tactics, but the thing that's changed the most is really now how people can choose to buy from us.
John: And I think that's what's really gets lost, is that a lot of the decisions to buy from us or not buy from us are made actually before we even know somebody's raising their hand.
Kathryn: They are made independent of us.
John: They are made completely independent. And so our job as marketers really is not to create demand. It's actually to organize the behavior that they want to go on. And I've written for years about something I call the marketing hourglass, which is before it was very trendy to talk about the customer journey, is really our version of the customer journey. What frustrates me is that for so many marketers, marketing ends once I get a sale.
John: And I think the greatest opportunity and that's the metaphor of the hourglass. It happens after somebody becomes a customer, and creating a better experience, retaining those customers, turning those customers into evangelists is where we need to be spending more time.
Kathryn: Right.
Michael: So you were thinking about this long before it was trendy or popular or being written about and spoken at big conferences?
John: Yes, Michael, I invented content marketing.
Kathryn: And did you also invent the full retention, and-
Michael: You heard it here first.
Kathryn: He's got the whole system, he invented it all, people.
Michael: I mean, it really-
Kathryn: The author of marketing, here on our podcast.
Michael: It's really interesting because it really has taken on... I mean, we've been at this for 20 years. It's the idea that we're actually thinking past the conversion of the sale and just how can we turn somebody into a customer, get their money, and not even think about the next step? That's a big deal. Do you remember the first time or the first season where you were thinking, "Why wouldn't anybody pay attention to this?" And you started talking about it more?
John: Very early on. And it's really a practical matter for me. I got a customer and I didn't know what I was doing. I had absolutely no plan for my business or where it was going or how I was going to serve, but I realized if I could hustle some work from somebody, I could probably sell them something else.
John: And that really was the genesis of my thinking. It's so hard to get a customer, especially when you're first getting started. Why wouldn't you take that person that already trusts you and say, "What else do you need? I could do that." Now, that's not necessarily a full-blown business strategy, but it probably did shine a light on the effectiveness of if you have 200 customers, and a percentage of them are very happy, I can almost guarantee 20 of them would love to do a lot more with you.
John: And a handful of that group would really do a lot more with you. That's just always made more sense to me. I've always just felt it was easier to take that approach. But statistics and research prove this out. I was reading a recent Price Waterhouse Cooper survey of small business owners, 86%... or I'm sorry, of consumers, 86% said they were willing to pay for more for a better their experience. I mean, 86% is almost everybody.
John: I know I will. I'm guessing you guys will. Right?
Kathryn: Yeah.
John: And yet, we focus on our TikTok game instead of creating a better experience. Another great statistic, I know marketers love statistics, Texas Tech just did a survey. 83% of the people they surveyed said that they had a business that they loved so much they would refer. And the follow up question was only 29% of them actually did, and that gap of 50% is leaving a lot of money on the table because again, we're out there chasing the next tactic.
Kathryn: Yeah. That's good.
Michael: Yeah. And when you pay attention to what's in front of you, mind the store and everything else, for us, it has been huge maintaining and keeping clients. We've got some clients for 10 years, we've even got our biggest client has been with us for 15 years.
Kathryn: Yeah. And it is one of those things. They hired us to redesign their Yellow Page ads about 15 years ago. And then just trust built and built and built. And as we grew our knowledge and they grew their need, they have transitioned to becoming a very significantly sized client for us.
Michael: I mean, everything from all of their digital, all of their traditional and the advising and business consulting in the midst of it. At a certain level, we're trusted. We all talk about this and you read about it in the books, or you hear about it from stage, to become a trusted person, but you have to actually want to do it and then work on it. Don't you?
John: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the book that we've referenced, The Ultimate Marketing Engine, is five steps to ridiculously consistent growth. And the first step is really all about this idea of what would it be like to actually scale with your customers? What would it be like to actually think about taking them from where they are today to where they actually want to go? Now some of that happens because you learn new skills. They come to you and say, "Well, now we need Google AdWords."
John: Okay. Let's add managing your Google AdWords. I mean, some of it just happens naturally, but I think if you start stepping back and saying, "Okay, what stage are most of the customers that we serve today coming to us in?" I mean, we all recognize the characteristics, right? That's how we sell them in that stage. What are the challenges they're having?
John: And then if we're providing a service or solution, what are the milestones that we have to accomplish in order to get them to the next stage? And then obviously, you've probably seen over the years, if we get them out of the foundational stage, we can now start doing X for them, that this will happen for them. So I've created something I call the customer success track, and it really is a point of view that says, "How could we develop the stages, the roadmap from taking our customers not just solving today's problem or selling a service as a transaction, but how can we start to think about the transformation that they would receive in a way that would actually allow us to provide 10 times the value that we're providing for them in this one solution?"
John: And I think it's a great way to think about your mission for your business, the overarching message, your sales messaging, who you hire, how you train. It really is something that I've developed it for marketing. If you get the book, if you get the resources with the book, you will get the entire roadmap of how we view marketing. But my real goal in bringing this to the world is that I think any business, regardless of industry or who they serve can take the same customers as members point of view.
Michael: So what are the different steps in your model?
John: Yeah. So the first one is to map where your customers are today and where they want to go. So that's a really big step, because it creates this whole customer success track. The second one then is to understand the real problem that you're serving for your customers.
John: So I sell basically marketing strategy. Nobody ever wakes up and says, "I'm going to go get some marketing strategy," but they do wake up and say, "How come the last three sales I tried to make, they wanted a lower price?" Or, "How come when I look at Google, my competitors are ahead of me for my search terms?" Those of problems that we actually solve for people. And we have to actually help them understand that we get that. We understand those problems, and then they will give us the permission to actually connect our solution to solving those problems rather than us, just for selling our solution.
John: Third step, and this is the hardest one for a lot of people. You've got to narrow your focus to the top 20% of your existing customers.
Michael: Yeah. I want you to talk about this. When I was reading about this, I'm like, "Okay, I want to hear how he processes this one with [crosstalk 00:12:08]"-
John: All right. So first and foremost, what I've discovered over the years, you've probably seen this to some degree, know the Pareto Principle, as cliche as it is, is true. In my experience, most of the clients I've worked with and helped really grow and scale, most of their profits, 80% of their profits were coming from their top 20% of their customers.
John: And yet, they listed the 23 other services that they might provide to somebody else who might happen along and find their business. It is so much easier to serve that profitable customer who's having a great experience, who has the right problem, who has the right set of behaviors, as far as trying to solve that problem that has a great experience with you. And the goal is not to just... Obviously, we want to take those profitable clients who all also refer business to you. We want to understand everything about who they are, so we can actually go out and maybe narrow our focus of what we offer, narrow our messaging, go out and find more of them.
John: But also, those are the people, if you have a client that you've gotten a great result for, they are going to be more open to, "What else can you do for us?" And those are the people that you should only be focused on almost exclusively, that's who you should be actually growing with and scaling your business, scaling your offerings, quite frankly, to serve that market because not only did you get a result for them, so they're happy and they trust you, guess who they know? They know people like them. They are probably going to be some of your greatest source of referrals as well.
Kathryn: Well, okay. So yeah, I'm going to ask this one question. Do you ever run into the, "You grew my business. I don't want you to do that for the people who do what I do, because then you're growing my competition?" So talk to me about that perspective.
John: Well, when I first started my business, I was in Kansas City, Missouri. I was solo. I was just taking work as I was developing this system that we use, called duct tape marketing. And I worked for one remodeling contractor. They would go talk about how awesome I was at the chapter event. And next thing I knew, two more wanted to hire me.
John: In that particular instance, I had trouble because I felt like I was giving the one client my best ideas. How could I come up with other best ideas to keep everybody else happy? So in a very small community, if you're going to choose to work in a niche, you're going to have to commit to working all over the country or all over the world certainly, because it is very difficult to have close competitors that you are essentially giving your best ideas and strategies to.
John: So, I mean, that's how I would answer that. I mean, fortunately, that is what we do today. We work all over the world, but on the other side of that is the demand for what we do is so needed, that it's less... It used to be if you work for Bob, you can't work for me, because we're hated enemies.
John: I think even today, most entrepreneurs and a lot of business owners view in a lot of cases, competitors as potential partners, as friends, as realizing that if we all rise, the industry rises. So I think the mentality and the view from a lot of business owners has changed as well.
Michael: So let's talk about this a little bit more, then. What do you see as the mindset challenges that business owners are having when you start to talk about this third step, this 20%?
John: Well, the first one is fear. I mean, it's like, "Well, wait a minute, this person said they'd pay us, kind of, maybe." So I think that's the toughest one. One of the things that I get them to do is we actually have every one of our customers list their customers by profitability. And it's not always revenue. There are certainly cases where a bigger client might actually not be that profitable.
John: And one of the things that almost always happens is it gets them to start thinking more narrowly anyway, because they're like, "I didn't realize our most profitable clients are all in this industry, or all have this thing, or all buy this product from us." And the other thing that almost always happens is they look at the bottom 25% and think, "Huh, we don't really do that anymore."
John: There's a reason they're the bottom 25, because they're legacy, or it was a slow Monday. And so we took that business, even though we had no business taking that. And so pretty quickly, they can start narrowing on their own. I mean, a lot of cases, those clients that aren't profitable at the bottom of that list also aren't getting served well and they're actually detractors in some cases because of that.
John: So it's pretty easy to cut that bottomless part off. I know that sounds heartless. There's lots of pain free ways to do that, but that has to be done. And then I think that that top 25% will show itself. The other filter that I like to use that often gets lost in the whole persona conversation is I get people to really analyze their clients, profitable or not, and ask this question, "Who do we provide the most value to the fastest?"
John: Because that's often, as I said, lost in the demographics discussion, I know the certain businesses that have certain things going on. I can help them immediately. I can turn a few dials and they will start feeling relief. I'm sure you all have seen this as well, and if we focused on those folks, well, first off, they are champions. They are evangelists because it's like, "Wow, we got this result. It was awesome and it happened quickly."
John: Now their next logical question is, "What else can you do for us?" My goal is to have customers for life. And so having that mentality of, "Let's get them a quick win because we know we can, and then they will be with us for as long as we can continue to provide value," those are the people that are going to pay us 10 times and 100 times what we might have done for them the first go around.
John: So in analyzing that idea of who can we help the fastest? Who do we help the most, the fastest? I've really changed some businesses, their entire focus, because it allows them to come up with this key point of differentiation for a very narrowly targeted market.
Kathryn: That's good.
Michael: One of the things that I find that's difficult and challenging in this subject here is actually what kind of words... How do you help somebody define? I mean, we've been doing persona work a long time, but I still struggle sometimes with going, I mean, it's still hard work going, "Okay, how are we going to figure out and analyze and then actually identify it and put labels on that ideal customer with those things in a way that we can actually find them?"
Michael: Facebook's algorithm, the way they've done everything, they've just taken away more and more and more ability to do it. And in the old days, we used radio and broadcast. What are your thoughts on that?
John: Well, so you're going to have to buy my course before we can go down that road.
Kathryn: Touche, Touche, John.
John: Thank you.
Michael: I'll trade you our course for your course.
John: So I'm a very big fan of behavior as opposed to just demographics. So we have an exercise that... the two things that we do, we have an exercise that we run people through and we get them to identify their must-have behaviors. Those are ones everybody knows. If I'm a remodeling contractor, somebody must have a house and they must live in my town, for example. Those are must-have behaviors, but then we start looking at, "Okay, what are some ideal behaviors?" You've discovered as a salesperson over the years that when it's a dual income family, that's a better situation.
John: They don't like to entertain. They don't want to hassle. They want somebody to be a complete turnkey solution. They maybe have more ability to pay, for example. And then we get them into what I call ideal behaviors. And so that might be somebody who is again, staying with my remodeling contractor, an entrepreneur who loves to entertain and is very involved in their community, very involved in their industry, and really believes in investing in their business as opposed to... or investing in what they do in life, as opposed to just what's this going to cost me?
John: So when we take businesses through that exercise and we get them to really pinpoint those behaviors, all of the sudden, we can not only target obviously in the ways that you can target, but we can also teach around that. So for example, I have a remodeling contractor that has been a client of mine forever. And one of the ideal behaviors that we found around business owners is this idea of investing in their community, investing in their industry, because right off the bat, it, to me, it demonstrates their beliefs.
John: It demonstrates what they value. It demonstrates they're thinking about investing in things as opposed to being costs. So not only do we look for that, but we actually write content for example, around why that's such a great idea for an entrepreneur or for a business owner to do. So we not only are able to identify the people that we think will be ideal clients. We actually start teaching people what it means to be an ideal client. And I think that's the missing piece.
John: We want to define a persona and a target client, and then we just want target them based on who they are rather than actually teaching them how to be an ideal client. And that's the part that I think is a missing link for a lot of people.
Kathryn: I keep thinking about David Allison and Valuegraphics, and this concept that-
Michael: Are you familiar with David?
Kathryn: Have you-
John: I am not.
Kathryn: So great guy out of Canada. We'd interviewed him on our podcast a few months ago. And his argument is that the demographics are way less critical than shared values.
John: So much, right.
Kathryn: So the more that you can identify values, you might have somebody who's 20 and somebody who's 60, and they're way more alike in terms of how they view life and what matters to them and the significance and that kind of thing than this, "Let's group them 18 to 25," as though they all think a certain way, right?
John: Well, exactly. We all know 30-year-olds who have diametrically different values. Right?
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Kathryn: Exactly. Yeah. So he'd be somebody who'd be interesting for you to study a little bit. His program is Valuegraphics, and it's amazing stuff. It's really cool.
Michael: He also identified something that was really interesting, that I just thought was a fascinating fact, is that he's got a database of over 500,000 people in it that have gone through a service. So he's evaluating these values, and the Millennials and the Boomers are actually very similar. The kids, as they become millennials and adults, they really started emulating their grandparents. Because then all of a sudden you're going, "Okay, this is this value of investing, and building, and working in and stuff."
Michael: Okay. So one of the things you talk about is the difference between storytelling and narrative, as you're educating, I think, and you're building your content. How do you define the difference between those two? What are you talking about?
John: Sure. Yeah, so first off, I mean, storytelling, people didn't talk about storytelling when we started our businesses. Now, there's a whole section in the bookstore on using storytelling in business. And so there's nothing wrong with it. I mean, it's way better than talking about ourselves, necessarily, or pointing out how great our business is.
John: But I think what's been lost in all of this storytelling is that again, it's not a linear path. A story typically is a linear path. The idea behind a narrative is a screenplay for example, or a good movie is a story that's been cut up in a way that is more compelling to the viewer. So instead of giving you the chronological facts, we have the car chase, fiery car chase at the beginning, car blows up, cut to the scene where the protagonist is now in sixth grade.
John: And you're like, "Wait a minute. I got to know what happened. I want into that story."
Kathryn: Yeah, how did we get there?
John: Right. How did we get there? And now I'm hooked. Our prospects are actually telling themselves a story already, and it's not our story. It's a story that they really already have in their heads. And I think that what we as marketers need to realize is that they're in charge of it. They get to construct the story or in this case, the narrative. But what we have to be doing as marketers is instead of just telling stories, we have to be painting the picture about a future state, about where they want to go before they will listen then to, "Here's your problem. Here's why you have that problem. Here's our solution."
John: And I think that's the biggest change that I'm calling for is that we're not in charge, just like we're not in charge of the buyer journey, we're not in charge of the story the way that we think we are.
Kathryn: So when you talk about the marketing funnel and the customer journey being limiting, is it because you see it as the focus being all on attraction and just really not focusing on the retention and promotion-
John: Yeah, that's right.
Kathryn: ... fulfillment side? Yeah.
John: Yeah. My version of the customer journey is hourglass-shaped for that reason.
Kathryn: Yeah, an hourglass. Yeah.
John: So there's nothing inherently wrong. We do have to get people, some percentage of people, to know about us and then some of them to realize they're more ideal and turn into customers. But I think unfortunately, that's where a lot of people stop.
John: And I think the real opportunity is then flip that hourglass over, and it starts to expand again, when you start then focusing on activities to retain and create repeat business and obviously, to creative evangelists. And I just think we have to hook all of that together. There are companies out there that certainly realize, "Yes, customer experience, somebody has to get a result."
John: I mean, I'm not telling people anything that they don't know already, but we seem to look at those as disconnected departments even.
Michael: Well, and it occurs to me that as we think about that, because I was thinking, well, yeah, because it's really the old model's not complete, but it's more than not complete, I think. It is the idea that if you are actually going to retain and continue to do business with them, you actually may change the way you're attracting people and you may attract the way you're converting them into a sale because-
John: Totally.
Michael: ... you want to leave a good taste in their mouth after that first sale.
John: So our seven stages are know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. So that try, buy is the middle part. But to me, that's the bridge to where you're going to actually get referrals. How they experience your business when they're still making a decision, certainly what happens when they do buy and everything after that, that's what's going to lead to the repeat sale.
John: That's probably the place where you are or are not going to get a referral, is based on what happens in that bridge period. So what I like to say about this is that I've talked about behaviors as opposed to creating demand. Most businesses have come to know about us. Now, come buy from us. And that's how we attract less than ideal customers. "Hey, I sell marketing services. If you need marketing services, I must be a good fit."
John: And we all know that's certainly not the case. And so when we shortcut that, trying to get to the sale, we don't let people understand why they should expect to charge a premium for what we do, who we work with, and the way that we work. I mean, I personally can't get results for somebody who comes to me and says, "I need a website and it needs to do this. And it needs to do that," because well, first off, we realize they don't know what they need.
John: That's number one. Sorry if I offended anyone there. But the biggest thing is that they're missing the connection between everything else that happens.
Michael: Oh, totally.
Kathryn: Totally.
John: That that is-
Kathryn: We're always like, "Let's back up a couple of paces, maybe go upstream a little, and..."
John: Yeah, exactly. And so when we attract that client or worse, take that client, we're doing them a disservice. We're doing our business a disservice. A lot of us rationalize it by saying, "Oh, when they become a client, then we'll fix that." Well, ain't going to fix that. How you attract a client, how you sell a client is how the client's going to be. And by skipping those gaps, you are missing the opportunity to teach them how to be an ideal customer.
Michael: I like that. Okay. So we went through the first three, the third one was the 80/20 rule. What was the fifth and sixth one, or did we already talk about it and I missed it?
John: Well, first off, there's only five. Were you bad at math?
Kathryn: You know what? You just talked about eight and seven and there's a lot of numbers going on here, buddy. Back off.
Michael: I went into marketing, not finance.
John: All right, so number four is-
Kathryn: It's still morning in California. It's still morning. Come on.
John: ... attract more ideal clients with the narrative they were already telling themself. That was step number four. So we got in. That's really where I started introducing the channels, the website, SEO, content, all the things that you need to do. And I guarantee you that the two-star reviews that I receive on Amazon will say, "You waited all the way until chapter eight to tell me I need a website. This is not a marketing book."
John: But we got to do all that other stuff, right? We've all seen that. If we do all the other steps right, then now we're ready to attract and convert ideal customers using these digital tools. So, that's really what step number four is. And step number five is scale with your customers by serving their entire ecosystem. Essentially, this could be blown up into an entire book about referrals because that's what I'm talking about in this.
John: And if you do the first four steps, building strategic partner networks, doing more with your existing customers, turning some percentage of your customers into not only repeat business, but to entire other levels of service, so this last step really takes that and breaks it down into a bunch of a very doable and in some ways, step-by-step scripted tactics that you can employ to take advantage of the place that you now hold in the heart of your customers.
John: I'll give you one that it seems to be getting a lot of people going. I never thought about that, is that I use that term of impacting your customer's entire ecosystem. So what I mean by that is a lot of the folks that we work with also hire other professionals. And so I'll give you a concrete example.
John: We had an author that came to us and said, "Look, I speak on big stages. My book sells well, but I don't have any brand really. I don't have any backend stuff, products and services to sell." And so really, she came to us to help her build a brand, but a whole roadmap of products that would be a part of the brand.
Michael: Nice.
John: We developed this and she was thrilled, really happy about it. She actually worked also with an executive coach who was helping her build the team that she was going to need for this as well.
John: We actually offered to go to that executive coach and say, "Look, we're going to educate you on the brand plan that we built for her, the whole roadmap, why, so you'll understand the research we did, everything about it. So we did that meeting. He was thrilled. It made his job easier, but in essence, we were providing a better value for our shared customer as well by educating him.
John: So he was so appreciative of that idea. It allowed him to do his job better, allowed us both to serve our customer better. Guess who sent us about four or five referrals over the next six months?
Michael: Nice.
John: And that was not our intent. That's just a happy byproduct of viewing how can I serve my customer and their entire ecosystem? And we could do that repeatedly with the other professionals that serve this individual. So that thinking, of thinking of your customer as member, thinking of where do they want to go, you start putting all of your focus on truly delivering value and we all know this. The more value you deliver, the more value you're going to get in return.
Kathryn: Yeah, for sure.
Michael: That's really good stuff.
Kathryn: Good.
Michael: How can people find out more about you, my friend?
John: So the book has a website companion course, all kinds of resources, just TheUltimateMarketingEngine.com. But if you want to check out what I've been doing the last few decades or so, it's just DuctTapeMarketing.com, and that's D-U-C-T-T-A-P-EMarketing.com.
Kathryn: Nice. Well, we'll make sure we put all that in the show notes.
Michael: Thanks for coming today. I appreciate it.
John: Yeah, yeah, no, my pleasure. As you can tell, I love talking about this.
Michael: I like talking to you too. It's always good. So everybody, if you're interested more in what John's doing and everything else, we'll have the show notes. You can go to the website, get those links there and then, or back this recording up, and you've got that. John's a great resource. He's been around a long time. That doesn't mean he's just an old man.
Michael: He's just experienced, and he's got a great perspective and one of the things I like about what he does is he's good at articulating it. He's good at helping people understand it, and he's been doing it a long time. So he's not just a guy who read a bunch of books and listened to a bunch of lectures. He's got the experience and the time behind him. And we're just really appreciative that you came to share that today, John.
John: Oh, my pleasure.
Michael: So hopefully, this has been helpful for you today. We hope you got a lot out of it and we just want to wish you a great week. And we really want to see you grow and develop your leadership, so that you're developing into the whole person, so you can lead your whole company. We really believe that's going to help you go the extra mile and really impact and leave a legacy for the people around you.
Michael: So with that said, thanks for joining us today. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the HaBO Village Podcast. Have a great day.
Kathryn: Bye-bye.
