Michael: Hello, and welcome to the HaBO Village Podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: This is the podcast dedicated to people who are entrepreneurs and business leaders, founders people like you running companies.
Kathryn: Yes.
Michael: Because we believe that you can build a company full of profit, purpose, and legacy. And we do that by developing us and you as the whole leader for the whole business. When we think about it holistically, well, we get a lot farther, we are a lot happier and the company grows a lot more. And so today we're going to talk about...
Kathryn: We're going to talk about a topic that would limit that growth.
Michael: Impede that growth. Slow-
Kathryn: It would impede that growth.
Michael: ... that growth.
Kathryn: Slow it. So we really want to talk about what are some characteristics of a toxic work culture? How would you, as a leader, if you're just trying to kind of look in at a company, how would you observe that the work culture itself is toxic, not positive, uncomfortable, all those kinds of things? So what is-
Michael: What are those characteristics of a toxic work culture?
Kathryn: Yep.
Michael: So when we do that, I think one of the things that's important to say up front is you could see this from an employee perspective, or you can see it from a business owner or a leader perspective. And sometimes being able to spot if your company has a toxic culture, well, sometimes it's just darn easy.
Kathryn: Yeah. Sometimes it's real obvious.
Michael: It's stupid, easy. It's like, "Well, duh, we have a toxic culture. I just don't know how to fix it." Other times it's toxic, and we don't know about it and things sneak up on us. Like...
Kathryn: You don't go from being super healthy to toxic overnight. It's not an overnight thing, usually.
Michael: Well, and here's what happens, sometimes you've got a little bit of toxic somewhere or you've got a lot of toxic. We'll talk a little bit more about this story is we go on, but I just had a discussion with one of the gentlemen we coach in another state, we'll leave it at that. And he was telling me about how the fact that he had hired a general manager, basically, he has less than 15 employees, maybe less than 12. And we had met her in this fall, in September, at a conference, and really nice lady and everything else. And he was excited. And as things went on, finally, he had to let her go.
Michael: And he let her go... There was a couple of things that were bugging him a little bit, but here was the big clue. Basically, he said, the entire staff unanimously came to him and said, "This is not going well, and we can't work for her." And then he had two customers come to him and say, "You've got to fix this. This is not okay." And everything else seemed fine. He didn't know, it kind of came out of left field that this was going on, but he realized that he couldn't do it. And he's a pretty in tuned guy and he didn't see it fully. And then when he did, he went, "Okay, we've got to act quick." So these are the things that can happen. This is an example of what can happen with a toxic culture?
Kathryn: And we've experienced some of that. We have a similar experience where at one point in our history, we brought someone in that wasn't the best fit. Great human, but not a great fit. And I remember when that season came to an end, the staff was really relieved. There was just a sense of, shoo.
Michael: And we were bothered, but we had no idea they were bothered, because they weren't really saying anything. And then the transition came and she left out of leadership, all of a sudden you're like, "Man, we're really glad." And all of a sudden the stories started coming out, which could have been dangerous, because we could have lost some really good employees before that, and we didn't. But we'll talk about the fact that's a danger today. So when we're talking about these characteristics, what are these major characteristics we're going to talk about?
Kathryn: We're really going to talk about in three areas. When you're thinking about characteristics of a toxic work culture, we want to talk about the people part, so kind of the things that you're seeing in the people that are working for you. We want to talk a little bit about the operations side, and how it flushes out there. And then that will obviously lead into impact on the financial. So your people, your operations, your financial, so let's start with talking about just the people.
Michael: Kind of a trickle down effect, isn't it?
Kathryn: It really, really is.
Michael: It really is a trickle down.
Kathryn: They all kind of play together. It's funny how that works. One of the things that happens with people, one characteristic with toxic work culture is, essentially, this communication breakdown. So even just, now, one of the things that happened for us and clearly had happened for this guy that Michael was coaching, is that the people who were working for him, that he really cared about, didn't feel safe to communicate with him, that they were struggling.
Kathryn: So somehow that feels toxic, because if there's somebody in leader up, in this case, it was a general manager kind of situation, and that person is a little bit toxic, then they have some power over the employees. And that can become damaging and people can break down that communication. So that's one piece of the puzzle that happens for people is they stop feeling safe at work. And that's demonstrated by not communicating, not being honest about what's actually happening.
Michael: Well, one of the things that's really hard to do is conflict, for most people.
Kathryn: Definitely.
Michael: Especially healthy conflict, right?
Kathryn: Right.
Michael: So there's passive aggressive conflict and all that kind of stuff. And I think the great book, probably one of the great books on this subject is Fierce Conversations. But you've got to have this idea of how do you have really honest, healthy conversations that aren't abusive? And most people are either are afraid of conflict or they realize in a work environment that they may not be comfortable with conflict, but when they do it, there can be consequences because so many other people don't like it or the bosses don't like it or whatever. And it's like, "Oh, you're a troublemaker. You're this." So you kind of keep your mouth shut, because you're like, "Well, this is my job. I need to be safe. I need to be careful."
Michael: And we've heard... I mean, there's got tons of stories. I mean, Patrick Lencioni has tons of stories in his books about senior VPs being careful, and not being honest with the CEO and with each other, because of that whole thing. So this is replete through a company, and you get into this place where it's like, well, okay, they just don't say anything. And I don't can tell you how many conversations, well, I can you know, how many conversations we been-
Kathryn: You can tell me.
Michael: ... involved in that was after the fact. And somebody says, "Well, yeah, I was struggling." And you're like, "Why didn't you tell me?"
Kathryn: Yeah. Why didn't you say something?
Michael: Why didn't you say something? "Well, I didn't know." Or "I tried to, well, I tried to hint at it," or, "I didn't think it was my place," or whatever. And these are the things that, as leaders, we may want it to be different, we may want people to behave different, but they're only going to behave different if we build them up and train them. We hire, train, and fire to these core values, especially if one of our values is honesty and trust, somewhere in that context. And then we've got to really create a safe place for them. But really the bottom line is it's our responsibilities as leaders. We've got to keep an eye on it.
Kathryn: Yeah. Another thing that you'll see is kind of this back biting culture, right? Or I might phrase it as you are seeing people who are talking about each other, not to each other. That sense of, I'm coming to Joe and saying, "Gosh, Sally is such a pain in the butt. I can't work with her anymore. Do you feel like that?" "Yeah. I feel like that." But nobody's communicating with Sally that she's causing any trouble. Or that there's a perception that there's some issues. And so that talking around and back biting and not actually addressing issues, which again goes back to the conflict.
Kathryn: But just in a really practical way, just seeing, whether it's a verbal conversation or an email conversation or Slack or text, or however people are communicating, that somehow they're actually frustrated and they're not solving that by dealing with the frustration, they're just venting.
Michael: Well. And I know we didn't talk about this before, but what's your immediate reaction to, how do you help solve that in your company? What's a practical thing in your opinion?
Kathryn: Well, one of the things that isn't necessarily horrible, that does happen, is that people will come to their direct report, their manager, and complain about another person. And I think training our managers, training the people who are in those positions of leadership to say, "Okay, your job at this point is to figure out how to point them back towards solving that conflict with that person." And you might need to step in it with them, but to not allow them to just simply vent and have that frustration, and not deal with it in a really healthy way. So that's one thing, and I [crosstalk 00:08:48]-
Michael: Remember,, we had an employee once who was older than most of the staff had kind of that role of helping us with leadership. And she had a chair that people would come in and sit, and she saw it as a very noble thing to listen to them all gripe and complain. And then she felt like it was her job to go to people and tell them, "So and so has a problem with you. You need to fix it."
Kathryn: It was super unhealthy
Michael: And it was unhealthy. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. If you're going to hear that, your job is to encourage them to actually address the other person in a healthy way. We're not talking about sexual harassment stuff here.
Kathryn: No.
Michael: We're not talking about stuff that-
Kathryn: No, we're not talking about HIPAA. We're not talking about stuff that you're... We're not-
Michael: Yeah, we're not talking-
Kathryn: ... talking about any of that.
Michael: We're just talking about how do you get along? And it bugs me that they leave their coffee cup out, and then they start to hold resentments, because they build up. I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that's critical in this place of dealing with this is to not only coach and train like we were talking about, but a very specific way is to do that. You've got to continue to point people, "Did you talk to that person yet? How did that go? Oh, you didn't talk to them. You need to talk to them first."
Michael: You need to be working on this kind of communication. And then if you're not getting anywhere, come to me, and say, "We need help," unless it's a big issue. And there's kind of that two scales, there's the everyday stuff, and then there's the, "Holy crap, I don't know how to talk to them about their BO." Okay, I get that. There are sensitive issues.
Kathryn: Right. That's hard. So another thing that is just reality that we see is that we talk about the Gallup stats a lot, where in America our statistic is that 65 to 74%, somewhere in there, are disengaged at work. So anywhere from sort of 25 to 35%, depending on what year you're looking at are engaged, they're productive, they're operating in a really good place, and the rest aren't.
Michael: What setting number again?
Kathryn: So at the top end, it's somewhere between 26 and 36%, it ranges over the last 10 years that are actively engaged.
Michael: And even the last 20 years.
Kathryn: Even the last 20 years, sorry. And then the disengaged, then is like 64 to 74%. And of those, of those folks that are disengaged, I think in 2021, the Gallup stats say that 15% of those are what they would call actively disengaged.
Michael: What does that mean?
Kathryn: So actively disengaged means that however they're doing it, however it looks for that individual person, they are actually sabotaging your company. So if you're disengaged at work, Gallup defines it as, people who are sleepwalking through the day, they're punching the clock, they're doing the minimum they need to do, but they're not invested. They're not being creative. They're not being innovative. They're just punching the clock and doing their job. Whereas, people who are actively disengaged, they're actually causing damage.
Michael: What do you think actively disengaged can look like in realistic situations?
Kathryn: I think it can look like sowing seeds of discontent, like talking really badly about people, and spreading rumors, and some of that back biting, the gossip. I mean, those are just some really clear, easy ones.
Michael: I think sometimes, too, you have things like, if you were looking at actively disengaged and you could see it, you'd probably fire somebody for most of it. So here's, "Nobody's going to notice if I take two bucks out of the till and go buy a soda," or if you're in a Mini Mart, I just take a soda out of the shelf to drink it when I want. There's a little minor stealings, some thieving, some things like that. Or in service industries, like, "Well, I'm just going to take an extra 20 minutes to do what I want."
Michael: We had one employee that we thought was a great employee, and he was a lot of times, but near the end, what we didn't know is he was taking time on the clock to work on his own business ideas. And the only way we found out was because of his guilt and conviction, and he came back to us three years later, four years later-
Kathryn: Much later.
Michael: ... and actually was so distraught, he confessed it, and offered to pay us back for lost time. Which we knew he couldn't afford, he was a... At the time, he couldn't afford it.
Kathryn: Can afford it... Nevermind, doesn't matter.
Michael: Now he is financially more successful, and we're happy for him. Because we were really proud of him that he could even come do it, and we released him from that.
Kathryn: But that's another great example, people who are spending a ton of time on their computers, doing their own social media and they're doing their own work, working on their side projects, trying to promote their side hustle on your time.
Michael: This is stuff that's actively disengaged, because they're actively doing stuff that's not... So you've got the person who's tearing down people. You've got the people who are stealing from the company, either time wise or property wise or anything like that. Then you have that whole idea, I think one last example that I was thinking about was the people who, they're not trying to screw the company when they're gossiping. They're not trying to screw the company sometimes stealing, they're not even trying to screw the company, they really don't understand, some of them do, most of them do. We've known some people who've gone to prison for that.
Michael: But the other side of the coin is that those people who are like, they're so competitive and they're so bitter, and so jealous of other people that what they're doing is actively sabotaging other people. Not to hurt the company, but because they don't like Susie or John in the next place. They want to get rid of them. They don't like them in the company or whatever. And they're doing stuff to actually bully them or steal from them or take from them. And those kind of behaviors just are all things that pile into actively disengaged, because it's tearing down the effectiveness and efficiency of the company. And ultimately, affecting every aspect of the company, at some level, it trickles through.
Kathryn: Yeah. So that's a really good transition to the next major section, which is the operations. We just talked about the characteristics of people in toxic workplace, what they look like sometimes. But operations wise, there's some really clear symptoms that you can identify when it comes to having a toxic workplace culture. So one of them is your turnover rate. You've got people who are not staying long term with your company. They're in, they're out, they're moving along. They're not telling you why they're leaving, but they're leaving. They have a better opportunity. And you're just seeing it happen a lot.
Michael: And a lot of times we're blaming that on, that's just the way it is in today's world. The statistics, the interviews, the data is to telling us that a lot of people aren't leaving because of another opportunity, they're leaving because of a bad manager. It's amazing how many people leave their job because of a bad manager.
Kathryn: Yeah. The statistic is like 85% of people who leave their job leave because of a bad manager, a person above them, who they just feel undervalued by. They feel bullied by. They just, whatever that is, there's a turnover that's directly related to just toxicity within the management.
Michael: It kind of breaks into an active or a passive neglect of employees. And then you have other things like, we've talked to people, we know people who have left a company, and this is actually unfortunately common, because they just can't work with somebody else anymore. It's a toxic environment and the manager knows it and the manager or senior leader won't ever fix it. So that's almost like a passive... The manager's not a bad manager in the sense that they're abusing you or taking advantage of you directly, but they are in a really reactive state of probably passiveness. Which is statistically, when we look at leadership development and everything else, that's the biggest detractors... Isolation and passiveness of a leader are the two biggest detractors of effective leadership and business effectiveness in a company, when your leaders are like that. So this is huge.
Kathryn: It is a super big deal.
Michael: So one of the things we're talking about here is these characteristics, and then as a leader, these are the things you need to, I want to say this again, these are the things you need to be looking for. These are the ways you start to see and do even a high level, quick assessment every once in a while. How's our staff doing? How's our leadership doing? How's our culture doing? Because we've talked about how it affects the people and different characteristics. We're talking now about systems and inefficiencies.
Michael: There's one in this efficiency level that... I remember the first time our outsourced CFO, or fractional CFO, came and started talking about a number I learned about in economics, you probably did too, but I don't know if you remember-
Kathryn: I tried to block out everything that was about economics, I don't know.
Michael: ... ut the idea of efficiency per person. So we think about how efficient a machine is. It's a really great example. And then you translate that to people. And you're like, okay, for every hour of work, we have an employee working, how much money do we make as a company?
Kathryn: Right. How billable are they?
Michael: Or if they're working a machine, things like that. But how much can the... And the more profit the company can have, ultimately, or the more widgets that are made or whatever, the more efficient an employee is. And there's ratios for that kind of stuff. When you have a toxic culture, that ratio is down below optimal, it's sometimes plummeting. I mean, it really is affected. So you can see it in your efficiency ratings or ratios and things like that to where you're like, "Well, gosh, we should be making a hundred widgets an hour."
Michael: I mean, we have a manufacturing company in pet food industry that some of you have heard about before. And one of the things we see is we track how many boxes are packed per hour. And we actually track that probably by the quarter hour, I think. Well, that number in a toxic culture where people are unhappy, they don't feel safe, their emotions are churning, they're thinking about how they're being taken advantage of or whatever that efficiency goes down. And when they're happy and engaged and enjoying work and everything else, and they're having playful competitions with their other coworkers, we see those numbers go up. That's a really, really practical way of seeing that efficiency level.
Kathryn: Definitely. Definitely. So another place that you will see evidence or characteristic of potentially a toxic work culture is in client turnover. So I think about how, especially when you're young and you have a company and you're starting your own company, and you touch every client. And so you have your pulse on everything, you just know. And if there's a client that leaves you, you know. You know why that happened. But as you grow and as you hire and as you train and as you staff other people, and as you grow as a leader, and then you step a little bit further back, one of the things that can happen is that you do, and rightly so, kind of lose your pulse on every client, you have to.
Kathryn: But if you are seeing clients that are starting to leave and there's no tangible good explanation for why, especially if they've been good clients for a decent amount of time, that's something that you have to investigate. So back to that story that you told, even at the beginning of our friend that you're coaching, there were clients that were leaving that had been good clients and he didn't know why.
Michael: Well, and this-
Kathryn: And some of them left and didn't tell him.
Michael: ... is, I'm going to call this the breakup syndrome or the it's not, you it's me syndrome.
Kathryn: Right. It's not about you. It's about me.
Michael: It's about me. No.
Kathryn: I just can't stand you're human, it's about me.
Michael: "We have changes we have to make," or-
Kathryn: Yes.
Michael: ... "We had some budget shifts," or, "We just have to go another direction."
Kathryn: They don't want to hurt your feelings, but they're leaving, and you're like, "Wait a second." And if that happens more than like one or two clients, you'd be like, "What's actually happening here?" Right?
Michael: Yeah.
Kathryn: And part of what was happening to our friend was that realization. And I think a couple clients were brave enough to say to him, "Yeah, you know what, we're leaving, because we just don't feel taken care of. And this person's really hard to work with. And so we're just going to do something different."
Michael: I mean, when you look at the statistics of reviews and all of that stuff, they say somewhere in the neighborhood of everybody who likes you, for every good comment, there's three or four other good comments that aren't getting caught. For every person who doesn't like you or gives you a bad review, there's potentially 10 or 12 that aren't saying they're unhappy. Now there are some nuances to that that changes stuff like that. We know that there are niches in people that are just complainers, especially in social media. But this is real stuff.
Michael: Another thing that happens in the efficiency or effectiveness category and all this stuff is when you're dealing with service businesses, problem solving and making sure that mistakes aren't made. When people are making more and more mistakes, something's wrong. Something's wrong in the culture. Something's wrong with your systems and your training, probably, but it could be a simple of people are disengaged, because they're not paying attention enough. What's going on? Is it your culture? Is it their home life? Is it the fact that they're lazy? It could be a few things, but it could be a symptom. It could be yellow flag. Look at that.
Michael: When you have a really great team equipped with people that have competency in character, and there's a great culture, one of the things that happens is problem solving or innovation goes up. And if you don't have enough people who are doing that, culture could be one of those things that's happening. And you could have actually created the culture yourself by hiring a bunch of people who are not problem solvers, and they're kind of like, "Well, that's not my job, or, "This is just the checklist, and well, the checklist doesn't work."
Michael: So these are things that are critical, because we're talking right now to a architectural firm about potentially doing some leadership coaching and development with them. And I've been thinking between our first meeting and our next meeting, I've been thinking about all the different dynamics of how leadership affects an architectural and engineering firm, and the nuances of that type of a profession. Ultimately, it can cost a lot of money when those kinds of mistakes are made, if they're caught. And if they're not caught and they slip through everything, then it starts to become... Just like when I was a mechanic, years ago, the engineers that put bolts in the middle of machines on the belly when they were mounted to the ground, and the only way to do it was to totally rip the whole thing off the ground. And [crosstalk 00:24:26]-
Kathryn: You were like, "Thank you so much for-
Michael: I'm like-
Kathryn: ... that thoughtfulness. Are you kidding me?"
Michael: ... "Couldn't you have just put it somewhere else?" And then repairing the machine costs like literally X multiples of it, and that can happen in a building, really quick.
Kathryn: Just bad design. Okay. So we've talked about people-
Michael: That one in San Francisco, that's falling over.
Kathryn: People don't want to hear about-
Michael: Right, okay.
Kathryn: ... buildings falling down. We're going to move on.
Michael: Check out the news. You can Google this. It's there.
Kathryn: So fortunately, they are trying to fix it, so it doesn't endanger humans.
Michael: It's not working.
Kathryn: Well, okay.
Michael: Okay. Moving on.
Kathryn: Hopefully nobody's in it.
Michael: Third characteristic
Kathryn: People, operations, third characteristic, and just an obvious, but when you have a toxic workplace, and these kinds of symptoms are happening, then obviously there's a financial impact.
Michael: Boom. To the bottom line.
Kathryn: Right. So the client loss is just dead obvious-
Michael: Boom.
Kathryn: ... that's a simple one. The turnover is huge, because the cost to retain employees is much less than the cost to rehire and train and all of those things.
Michael: Yeah. But basically all the people who do the numbers say, that is the largest hidden expense in our American economy, is the cost of turnover. Because it can cost you one to one and a half for a normal, basic employee their annual salary to replace them, the costs that you're losing and the costs that you have to come up with. One and a half to two of any kind of skilled worker, so that could be somebody who went to school for something or anything like that, so a higher level thinking, two X of a salary of, let's say, to hire somebody like that right now is somewhere between 80 and $150,000, and it's going to cost you two extra replace that person.
Kathryn: And get someone up to speed.
Michael: And you should be paying way more attention to hiring, and then way more attention to keeping good employees, because, again, a good employee in a toxic culture, they're like, "I don't need to put up with this. I'll go somewhere else," and they do.
Kathryn: And they do.
Michael: The Great Resignation is a perfect example of that. They're like, "I don't have to put up with this stuff anymore."
Kathryn: Yep. So that's an obvious one, and then the other thing is, and we alluded to this earlier, but with the efficiency and the effectiveness, it's the profit margin. Your profit margins decrease. So where you were making 15% at the bottom line, suddenly you're down to like five percent at the bottom line, because the efficiency and the effectiveness of your team has gone way down, the cost to serve your clients has gone up, and in a world where there are outside forces that are impacting everybody's profit margins, you sure as heck don't want to be the cause of your own further discontent.
Kathryn: So I mean, profit margins are, are getting harder and harder with just all of the increasing expenses and everybody's raising their prices and we're just in a crazy time in the economy. But this place that you do actually have control over, this place that actually is something you can influence is within your own people and your own culture. So the more healthy and the less toxic it is, it's going to impact your profit margins just based on the ability of your people to be effective, to be problem solving, to be innovative, to come up with solutions that make things go faster, all of those pieces of the puzzle. The impact financially, obviously, of a toxic culture, is significant.
Michael: absolutely. And you start looking at those things, and you're just like, "Oh, my goodness." And as a leader, sometimes you're like, "I don't want to deal with that." I mean, we're not immune from the issues that people have, we're human beings. So sometimes we don't like the conflict. We've met tons of leaders who just like, "I just don't want to deal with the conflict, can't they all get along? Or, "Why do I have to deal with that? Why can't they be grownups?" That's an excellent question, by the way, I don't have an answer to it. Because we ask that question, why can't they just be grownups?
Michael: Not so much about our staff, anymore, but golly gee. And you sit there and you go, "Okay, what will I put up with as a leader before I have to deal with it? How far will I let a problem go before I have to deal with it?" And especially, I think you go to the point where it hurts more to not deal with it than to deal with it. And that is a real deal for all of us.
Kathryn: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Michael: And you talk about margins. There are some companies that we've seen and worked with that have high margins that it's like, "We're profitable. We do well, let's not rock the boat. Let's not deal with that." Because, "Well, so it costs us a little bit of money. I mean, we're still profitable, we're still doing good. We're still growing as a company." But really what you're doing is you're saying, "I don't want to deal with it. It doesn't hurt enough." Even though it's still a negative impact on your company, your people, your systems, your profits.
Kathryn: Yep. So as we begin to wrap this up, I was thinking of one story. One of the things that I think is just true about growing as a company and growing from that startup phase into the middle phase, and then you're growing and increasing employees and staff and all of that is, as a leader, you really do have to pay attention to the shaping of your culture, and to potentially the reality that like anything else in life, what got you here may not get you there.
Kathryn: So we're remember this story, a friend of ours told us about, where he had started a company and it was a bunch of guys and it was pretty raucous they were like boys in a locker room. And then they started growing and they're adding staff and the more staff they added, it took them a while to figure out that the way that they had started the company and the way that they treated each other, wasn't going to fly, if they were going to become a real company, if they were going to grow up, right?
Michael: Absolutely.
Kathryn: And actually create a culture that was healthy. So also that recognition that you might have started a company or have a culture that you're like, "Well, we're just having fun. We just rib each or whatever." But there is a level of professionalism. I mean, one of my core values is fun. So one of my symptoms, if I don't think things are good in the office is I'm not hearing any laughter or there's no joking and humor going around, right?
Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kathryn: And so I'm all about that. But if that is happening at the expense of people, because you designed a culture that was like the locker room, you need to grow up. You got to figure out how to make it safe for people. And how to make it a place that everybody can thrive. So that's just a story that came to mind as we're thinking about people who want to have great cultures and need to transition from what was, into what's going to take them to the next depth, which may be a significant shift. So just wanted to throw that out there, if you're young in your development and your leadership as a company.
Michael: Well, and I mean, whether you're 55-
Kathryn: Well young companies then.
Michael: ... or 25 or 30, right?
Kathryn: Right.
Michael: These are critical things, and we all have to learn them at some point, and I'll tell you what Kathryn and I, while we've had lots of great opportunities to grow up with leadership skills and everything else and some great leaders pouring into our lives, I still feel like we were way behind the curve, because of other things in our lives and situations that we grew up with. And our families gave us some really great things and some really not so great things. And they left us an inheritance of both.
Michael: And even starting our company, we started at 34 and 36. I mean, we were in our mid 30s, starting our first business, now, we're 20 years in. But we felt like we were behind the curve, especially in a world that says, if you made your first million by the time you're 30, something's wrong with you. And if you don't have your number made by the time you're 40, well, then there's really something wrong with you. I mean-
Kathryn: There's no hope for your future.
Michael: ... every field and everything has their own comparisons. And that's just not true. I love it. I was talking to a leader the other day and a perfect example of that is I used a term that was lingo. And this leader is really good at their craft. I think they're a great person. I like them. They're involved in the community, and their company puts out great stuff. All in all great guy, great stuff, customers like working with them, employees they've had for a fair amount of time. He goes, "I'm kind of dumb. I don't know what you just said." He was willing to say it. And I'm like, first of all, I thought it was an elementary term, just a business term. And it was like, great. You know what? He's still learning it. He doesn't mind saying, "I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. And I don't feel bad about asking and I'm not mad that you used it. Tell me what you mean."
Michael: Having that learning attitude is great. And as we talk about this, and we're going to wrap this up today, that this whole issue of the three characteristics of a toxic culture, this idea of the people and relationships, the systems, and your finances, this is all to help you build a passion provision company. That's what we talk about all the time on this podcast. And we're helping you grow. And really what we continue to want to leave you with on a regular basis is the best way to do this is to grow. The best way to continue to build your company and build a company that has more profit, less stress, and you're actually enjoying what you're doing more, then all of a sudden you're avoiding burnout, and you've got a system that's growing and it has the potential to be way more profitable, way healthier for you.
Michael: That's the kind of company, if you want that kind of company, that's what we're talking about. And there's three characteristics that you need to always talk about that we talk about. You need to learn more information and you're growing. You need to develop new skills and you're growing. And then you need to build trust and the right attitudes in yourself and in your team and your people. And those three things, when you think about those three things together, that's the core of growing and learning, the new information, the new skills, the new developed trust and attitude, or deepening in those skills and trust. And the best way to do that is really to have somebody helping you along the way, having a coach, having a mentor.
Michael: We do this as a [consultance 00:35:00] with our company, with clients and we do leadership development coaching, because then you can get into a plan. You're not just haphazardly doing it. And as we always say, "It's hard to read the label from inside the bottle." And so the ability to deepen real change and accelerate that change is great. There's no short cuts, but there are innovations and more effective ways of doing things. And we encourage you to find somebody to do that.
Michael: Half a Bubble Out, we do this at Half a Bubble Out with our clients. If we're not the right fit, find somebody. And if you are interested in talking, please give us a call, contact us at halfabubbleout.com is our website, and get a conversation with us. There's materials and education and all kinds of different stuff you can get, including our book, Fulfilled: the passion and provision way of building a company with more profit, more purpose, and legacy.
Kathryn: [Woot woot. 00:35:56]
Michael: And so we are committed to this process of helping you grow and helping you create a company that, again, has more profit, is more fulfilling to run, and helps you avoid burnout. Because we think being business owners is a phenomenal thing, a great opportunity to impact our world, and change our family's world.
Kathryn: And we think that having employees is a privilege.
Michael: Yeah. Because I was reminded yesterday in a lunch, if you really want to create anything in the world that's worth having, you need to not be a lone ranger, you need to do it with other people around. Have community around you. So with all that said, we're really excited. If we can help you please contact us. We're Michael and Kathryn Redman. And-
Kathryn: Tell all your friends.
Michael: ... this is the HaBO Village Podcast. Thanks again for joining us today. We hope you have a fantastic week.
Kathryn: Bye-bye.
Michael: Bye.
