Michael: Welcome to the HaBO Village podcast, where we talk about developing the whole leader for the whole business. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: This is the podcast for entrepreneurs, founders, and business owners, leaders like you who are running companies.
Kathryn: Our goal is to encourage you, give you practical tips and tools that you can apply today, and even more importantly, remind you that you're not in this alone.
Michael: Because we believe that you actually can build a company that is financially successful, fulfilling for you and your team, and avoid burnout all at the same time.
Kathryn: And we know because we've done it and we've been helping other leaders do it too for over 20 years.
Michael: Welcome to today's show. Let's dive in. Hey.
Kathryn: We are here.
Michael: How are you doing?
Kathryn: I am doing so well today.
Michael: Okay, so-
Kathryn: I'm in a crazy happy place.
Michael: You are in a crazy happy place. And today's show's going to be about thankfulness, gratitude, and some reflections. We're into podcasts. Our podcast is over 170 episodes. I'm not sure exactly which one this is going to be. Over all this time, we've been working on intros. That was our brand new intro. The first time time-
Kathryn: That was our brand new intro.
Michael: This is the first podcast for that intro.
Kathryn: So, let us know because we're planning on using it until one of you said, "It doesn't work."
Michael: Actually, you know what? If you don't like it, I don't want to hear it. I like it.
Kathryn: I live for positive feedback.
Michael: I like it. Well, if it's positive, tell us.
Kathryn: Yeah. Absolutely.
Michael: I get enough negative feedback. I don't want negative feedback on this.
Kathryn: So, Michael, what's special about today?
Michael: Oh, so many things are special about today that we thought would be really cool to talk about on the podcast today. First of all, it is our two year, second, anniversary of the publishing of our book, Fulfilled: A Passion and Provision Strategy for Building a Profit with More Purpose.
Kathryn: For building a profit. For building a business.
Michael: For Building a Business with more Profit, Purpose & Legacy.
Kathryn: Indeed, it is.
Michael: You think that would've come out smoother because-
Kathryn: You would think after two years of practicing.
Michael: After two years of practicing and saying it all the time.
Kathryn: So, it is Cinco de Mayo. So, happy Cinco de Mayo. You're probably not listening to this on Cinco de Mayo, but I hope you had a great margarita to celebrate it.
Michael: Happy May the fourth be with you a day late.
Kathryn: All of those things. Yeah. So, we released our book on Cinco de Mayo two years ago.
Michael: Two years ago.
Kathryn: 2020, right after the pandemic shut down the world. And we were like, "Uh, do we release a book right now? Is this a good gift?"
Michael: Yeah. And this has been an amazing, really, a fun, amazing journey for the last two years because of entering into the market in the middle of COVID when the world was freaking out and everybody said, "This will only last two more months."
Kathryn: Right? "We should be done by the end of summer."
Michael: "It'll be over soon."
Kathryn: Lo and behold.
Michael: And then, no. And then it was just a week or two ago that we got to fly on our first airline in the United States-
Kathryn: Without a mask.
Michael: ... without having to wear a mask.
Kathryn: The day that the mask mandate was lifted on airlines we got to fly.
Michael: Yeah. We got to fly.
Kathryn: There were some happy TSA officers, let me tell ya.
Michael: Happy TSA, happy-
Kathryn: Happy stewardesses.
Michael: ... stewardesses, happy captains.
Kathryn: Oh, happiness. So, much happiness.
Michael: Everybody was thrilled. And then on top of that, we have this other thing going on in our life right now that is the fact that we're moving.
Kathryn: We're moving, and tonight will be the last night we sleep in a house that we've lived in for 24 years.
Michael: 24. Listen to that, folks.
Kathryn: 24 years.
Michael: I would love to hear from any of you who've lived in your house for more than 20 years. And we just talked to somebody who'd lived in their house for, I think it was... Oh, we just interviewed a guy this morning on-
Kathryn: Yeah, and he's lived in his house-
Michael: ... for the podcast.
Kathryn: ... since 1987. So, he wins.
Michael: Yes. That's-
Kathryn: So, he's like 35 years or something.
Michael: And he doesn't intend on moving anytime soon.
Kathryn: No, I don't think he intends on ever moving.
Michael: He's got such a cool pool table behind him when he was being interviewed. If you're curious about what was cool about the pool table, put that in the comments also. Okay. And I'll tell you. So, for us, being in the same house for 24 years, and if you're a listener to the podcast, you're putting the numbers together, we've been in business here at Half a Bubble Out for 20 years. And if you've listened to the podcast, we started the business in the spare bedroom.
Kathryn: We did.
Michael: Then we moved to the garage.
Kathryn: Yeah. We remodeled the garage. Yeah.
Michael: And then we moved into the building we're in today in 2006. January 2006. And we've been here in this building ever since. So, there's a lot of-
Kathryn: The entire life of our business has been lived in that home and so there's incredible memories, incredible gifts in that space. So, there's certainly... As much as I'm excited about the new place and I am excited, don't get me wrong. I am stoked. I came into the office a couple of days ago after we got the keys and all of that stuff. And I said to Sandra at the front desk, "Guess what I have in my car?" And she said, "What?" And I said, "A garage door opener." I actually get to park in a garage. First time. I'm super excited about that.
Michael: Yeah. We've never done that as-
Kathryn: No. Because we remodeled the garage and used it as our office, right?
Michael: Well, there wasn't much of a garage to park in, either. I mean, cool, a detached garage in the back, but we're talking 1953 house in Northern California. It was in the country at that point.
Kathryn: It's was like a double car garage with a single door. It was [inaudible 00:04:53]. Anyway, not extremely... It worked great as an office, but not as great as a garage.
Michael: Not as great as a garage. So-
Kathryn: So, I'm super excited about moving into the new house, but this journey of packing and sorting through stuff and purging and then looking at things that you probably should get rid of that you know nobody else in the universe is ever going to care about, but you just can't quite get rid of it yet, right? All of those things. There's been a lot of just melancholy and just-
Michael: A lot of reflections.
Kathryn: ... a lot of reflection and a lot of just gratitude for kind of the if these walls could speak, right? Because we've just done a lot of life there. We've had a lot of opportunity there. We have struggled and been thrived and I mean, there's just been all sorts of crazy stuff.
Michael: And having only one child. And Jenna, if you listen to the podcast, I have said that several times today, but you hear us talking about these things, right? In this podcast. And we talk about family at times and relatives and friends and all of that kind of stuff. Jenna's 26 now and gone through college and because of the housing crisis in Chico and in California, she lives with us and we love it. We all chose that together. And so she's moving with us into the new house at this time in life. And so we're this family affair that we have all these memories of coming and going.
Kathryn: But this is her childhood house. She's never known anywhere else because she can't remember, right? We moved in when she was two and a half, right? So, she doesn't remember anywhere else.
Michael: So, this house has always been our house and the new house, she refers to it as your house.
Kathryn: Your house. Knowing that she won't be there forever.
Michael: And I'm trying to coach her to say, "This is our house, because you're living there. It's our home," funny things like that. But folks, these are things that, as you grow a business, and whether you're the type of person who wants to invest in seven or eight or 10 different businesses because you're really a serial entrepreneur type person and you like having partners and having a lot of that... We were interviewed yesterday on a podcast where the guy has-
Kathryn: 27 businesses or something.
Michael: ... 27 businesses and 14 business partners. And I'm like, "Oh-
Kathryn: My head was spinning at the end of that podcast.
Michael: I was like, "Wow, that's just too much for me." But we have a couple of companies and we have partners in you and I, and then we have a business partner in Rabbit Hole Hay. But looking at that and going, if you're going to be, whether you're running businesses and multiple businesses and you want to flip them or whatever, or you're building one or two businesses and you're just growing and building it and that's what you're doing... We've got several friends that are like that, clients that have spent decades growing a single business.
Kathryn: Yeah. That's their legacy. It's what they're-
Michael: Yeah. It's their thing. And one of our friends, Danny, they've got five locations in five different cities. And so I think about all that kind of stuff. It's like, as you're investing you pour your life into this. And if you really think about it and you're going to be successful, you don't just separate your family and the rest of your life from work. You try and find a healthy mixture so that it allows you to be present wherever you are and make sure you show up for the important events in life and don't skip them because of something else. And your home is a center place. You're coming and going from it. Your family's coming and going from it. This is a big change, but I'm so grateful for what it was. We bought it before the dot com boom in 1998. When we say 24 years, for some of you you have-
Kathryn: You're like, "That's longer than I've been alive. Wait a minute."
Michael: Right. Or you were in kindergarten at the time or something like that. You understand that we bought this house and then we went through the dot com boom and the dot com crash. And then we had the house through that and we started the company in '02. And then we went through the housing boom. And then we went through the Great Recession and we came out of the Great Recession. And then we went through this, whatever this last crazy stock market climb has been for the last 10 years and all the different politics and everything else. And now the world is just, we've got diseases and we've got groups of people on the left and on the right and in the middle and in the back, all kind of... it's like there's just so much what we call VUCA.
Kathryn: Yep. Volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.
Michael: And with that, I'm really grateful for the things that we've been able to accomplish in the business. You've got to stop. And most of you who listen to this you know this, but this is a reminder. You got to stop and be grateful and say thank you. And for us, we say thank you to the people that helped us get here, our team. For us, it's thank you to God for really being able to give us the opportunities and walk along the process with us that we believe for us. And you know us. Our faith is really critical and important to that part. And we're just grateful in that whole process.
Kathryn: Yeah. Well, and I was laughing just before we got onto this podcast and started talking about this stuff. There was an email that our team had put out. It's from Michael K. Redman, but let's be honest. Sometimes he doesn't write his own emails. And this particular one was this celebration of the two year anniversary of publishing our book. And I got to tell you, in the middle of everything going on in our lives with this being the final day in our house and the chaos and the packing and the movers coming tomorrow, I didn't know today was the two year anniversary of the release of our book.
Michael: That's funny.
Kathryn: So, I literally read this email and I was like, "Oh my gosh. That is so much fun." And hopefully you're on the email list and if you haven't gotten it, it's great. Because there's a gift in there of just literally just go read the first 26 pages, and if you decide you like it terrific. But anyway-
Michael: I mean, we often tell people, "Read the first two chapters and if you like it, throw the book away."
Kathryn: Yeah. If you don't like it, throw the book away.
Michael: If you don't like it, throw the book away.
Kathryn: If you like it-
Michael: If you like it-
Kathryn: ... keep reading.
Michael: ... keep reading. But the response to the book is amazing. People really like the book.
Kathryn: People like it.
Kathryn: Yeah. So, it's interesting, the timing of everything, right? Because when we say we've lived in this house 24 years, it's literally 24 years this week. It's almost to the day, right? And so for this to be the two year anniversary of the book release and all of these moments coinciding on a day where I just want to have a margarita and celebrate Cinco de Mayo and know that I probably shouldn't because then I'll be too tired to pack...
Michael: Yeah. That would be kind of problematic, couldn't it? Yeah.
Kathryn: Yeah. I'm hoping-
Michael: But there's nothing like-
Kathryn: ... all my friends have a great margarita.
Michael: ... a big thing of fresh guacamole.
Kathryn: And a really good margarita.
Michael: You know me and margaritas. We don't agree. But-
Kathryn: Well, for me. You can have whatever you need.
Michael: But a lovely-
Kathryn: You can have a beer. Have a Modelo.
Michael: A lovely dark cerveza.
Kathryn: Yep. Negra Modelo. You go. Anyway, so this is a bit random-y but I just think that it's important that we pause and celebrate and reflect on the things that we have had in our lives that have been consistent and have brought just stability, right? Our home being in one place for 24 years, there has been stability there. There has been a home base. There's been a place of things not changing in the middle of a lot of change over the last 20+ years in the business. So, it's amazing what longevity can do. I mean, we were just having a conversation again this morning with somebody that we interviewed, Ron Coury, and he wrote a book on tenacity. And it's really his story. But even that theme of what does it look like to stick with something and to be in one thing for the-
Michael: And his tenacity speaks about a lot of business success, but a really significant story about adversity and how he decided not to fold even when it was dark and ugly and pretty crazy.
Kathryn: Yeah. And so even that was like, "Yeah. When you've been doing something a really long time, there's interesting perspective that goes with that."
Michael: What was interesting with Ron is, you think about it, Ron was a business guy. He knows what it's like to start new businesses and things like that. And he was a Marine for two years and he credits a lot of stuff to the Marines told you, just, you never give up. It's-
Kathryn: Yeah. Failure is not an option.
Michael: ... failure is not an option. And what was interesting to me is not only did he go through a process where he was falsely accused and really... I mean, we're talking dirty business here, folks. Most of us don't ever see this or have to experience this.
Kathryn: It's like the Las Vegas underbelly.
Michael: Yeah. This is underbelly stuff that was like... You want to think, "This is kind of mafia stuff." It wasn't mafia stuff, but it was organized. There was a form of organized crime and politics and everything else that were coming against him. And it went all the way to the Nevada Supreme Court. And he finally cleared his name basically and was allowed to do business and certain things like that in a certain city outside of Las Vegas. But he finished that in the late '90s. That court case went through lots and lots and lots of stuff. And then within five years he got esophageal cancer. And when we met him today and talked with him, what a great guy, what a great spirit. We would never have known he had esophageal cancer. And he said that his doctor told him that at the time that was a 4%, 8%?
Michael: 8% survival rate for people who were diagnosed with esophageal cancer. And here's a guy who could have been slightly bitter and edgy and everything else. And he wasn't. He was incredibly grateful. He was really kind and gracious and great storyteller. But I think about this idea of tenacity. And we talk about thinking about the long game all the time about being successful in business. Even the article, I haven't talked about this in a long time, but there's an article that I have in my library from the San Francisco Chronicle probably 10 years ago. And one of the grandfathers of venture capitalism wrote a book and then was interviewed in the San Francisco Chronicle about his book. And I got the book, too. It was really interesting. I think it was a sleeper, how many people are going to be really interested, but I found it was fascinating because this guy was genuinely kind and nice. He invested in Google and he invested in Yahoo and all that kind of stuff.
Kathryn: All the things.
Michael: If you're familiar with venture capitalism and Sand Hill Road, he had an office on Sand Hill Road before it was known for venture capitalism type of thing. He talked about the diners the diner that everybody went to and all these talks went on and stuff, kind of the early days. But he said one of the problems with venture capitalism today and one of the reasons he wrote the book was there's all these young people who want to be venture capitalists. They have a little bit of money and they think it's a lot of money.
Michael: And their whole entire goal is to say, "Well, I want to flip my money. I want to invest my money in a company and I want to be able to grow the company and flip it in three to five years." That was being said a lot in Silicon valley for over a decade. I don't hear it as much right now, but I know it still exists to some extent. And his whole thought was, "I've been at this for 45 years." He was in Washington for a period of time as the head of the International Bank. The guy was interviewed on 60 Minutes.
Kathryn: So, pretty much nobody. He's nobody.
Michael: Just a schlub. And he said two things. One, it usually takes 10 years. When you're going to go into a company, you have to be there and you only have so much capital. So, you have to pick and choose where you're going to invest the capital. And the failure rate of... You interview 100 companies. You invest in four of them, and two or three of them fail. And that one takes 8, 9, 10 years to actually turn into something. And you've got to be careful not to spread your money too thin or lock your money up too much, and the challenges of that. And what it did is it was so encouraging to me because it came back and said, "You need to think about the long game." 10 years is a long time. It's not 20 or 30 years in a business, but 10 years is not a jump in and flip it and-
Kathryn: Quick ROI.
Michael: ... turn and burn and go and everything's great. It's not. And 90% of businesses are going to fail by then. And only 4% of the ones that survive are going to get to a six, seven figures or a million dollars or more. Again, it's the gratitude of learning to have these goals, but learning to enjoy life as you're going along and the power of that, I think, in business. Well, let me ask you. Let's be really practical for a moment. What's the value of this trait of being thankful or gratitude in running your business on a day-to-day basis? If we were to say to everybody right now, well, the three people that are still listening because they got tired of listening to our story, folks, this is where the juicy stuff comes in, why is this an important trait and how is it important to running a business? How does this apply?
Kathryn: So, there's a saying out there that most people, I think, think of it in their personal lives. And the saying is, "Gratitude makes what we have enough," right? And I think that in business it is so easy to focus on what isn't. What isn't yet, what we don't have, what we haven't solved, the code that we haven't cracked that we have to crack to get to the next level that we want to get to. And we've got some of those in our world, right? And it's really easy to focus on that. And I think what happens is that when you focus on gratitude, on the things that are good, on the things that you have been successful in, I think what it does is it strengthens your fortitude to move forward. Because when I stop and I'm grateful And I think, "Oh my gosh, I have the best team that works with me.
Kathryn: I love the people that I'm working with. I have some amazing clients that I love serving. I'm excited about projects that are coming up and grateful for those opportunities," when I do that and I shift my mindset on a day where maybe one more time I'm seeing a report that means I haven't quite cracked that code yet in that world that I really want to crack, and what it does is it strengthens me to keep moving forward. It makes what is enough to take the next step forward. So, I think that is true in my personal life.
Michael: I like that. I like that a lot.
Kathryn: But in my business life, it is so, so powerful for me to think about the good and the positive and allow that to give me the courage to keep moving forward. So, that would be how I would answer how it applies in business.
Michael: So, as I'm listening to you, that was really good, and I'm listening to the idea of mindset and the idea I keep thinking about the glass is half full, not half empty. Because this growth mindset that we've talked about a lot and we continue to focus on in a lot of our trainings, growth mindset doesn't say the glass is half empty. It says the glass is half full. And some people would say, "Well, I drive myself forward knowing that the glass is half empty and I want to fill it up. And so I have to keep reminding myself/" but I think there's a lot of research and our experience says that actually takes a lot more energy. I mean, doing the hard work to shift your mindset takes a lot of energy. I don't want to minimize that.
Michael: But when you're looking at that glass and you finally come to the place where you're like, "I'm half full and I'm thankful for that half full and now I still want to move forward, because I need to figure out how to troubleshoot and problem solve and optimize this, that and the other," or, "We've hit this wall 10 times. Do we go for an 11th to try and solve it because we believe in our gut that it's solvable and will have the value to it?" you have to have that kind of process. Here's the other thing that I think is really important. When we talk about management, the big difference between, if you're listening for one of the first times, the big difference, or you haven't heard us say this before, the big difference between leadership and management is leaders get to choose the overall direction.
Kathryn: Yep. They set the vision and-
Michael: People who are in management are leaders who are leading people and managing our systems and things and stuff like that. And I totally believe that. When you're doing that type of stuff, we talk about a five step process. Actually, we talk about the seven steps. We've expanded it for the 337. And in those seven steps, the whole idea of public recognition and celebrating people's successes and saying, "Well done." When somebody says, "You did a good job," even if you have a hard time hearing it, you get a little shot of some really good brain juice in your brain. Those neurochemicals kick off and they say, "Hey, this is pleasurable." Even if you have a hard time saying thank you or anything like that, there's this thing that happens like, "That's nice. Somebody recognized me." Something happened. Especially if it's done in an appropriate way.
Kathryn: Somebody said, "Thank you."
Michael: That's why I think one of the things, thank you, genuine thank yous are so powerful, especially when you write it down. But you're looking at that and you're going, "Okay, here we want to recognize you. We want to encourage you." Because your team actually needs to be reminded that their work, all their effort and everything else, is enough. And it doesn't mean that we're not continuing to grow, but for today, "You did a good job. That was enough. Thank you very much." We're appreciative and we're just going to say thank you. And there are so many research studies based on companies that have implemented that and how successful they are, how much more profitable they are to the bottom line, and how much healthier the companies are. And the ones that don't implement that, they're magnitudes less successful and able to handle change and adapt to change.
Kathryn: Well, I mean, it's not rocket science. It's neuroscience, but it's not rocket science that happy people perform better, right? All of us as leaders. I mean, again, that courage, that fortitude, that ability to move forward, take the next steps. That's true for your employees. It's true for you. It's true for your kids, if you're raising kids. There's such power in just aligning your mindset to the good and to thinking about what is positive and what is hopeful and not focusing on the negative. And again, it's not denial, right? It's not. I mean we know there's issues and challenges. Every single one of us, anyone who's ever led a business, anyone who's ever been alive, if you're just part of the human race, there are always going to be challenges, right? There's always going to be problems that arise, things that you didn't anticipate, all of that.
Kathryn: This tenacity, this willingness to focus on the positive, this forward thinking mindset is really what allows you to address those things and not have them bury you. So, there is incredible application and power in it. And even today as that email came reminding me that today is the two year anniversary of the publishing of the book, and just this sense of pausing. I could have just said, "Oh my." I could have just said to you, "That is amazing." But what I did was I wrote an email to everybody in our company to say thank you to my team for what they're doing to keep this moving forward and for how much that email encouraged me today. And then I said to you, I was laughing because you try and sort it out, right? People say, "You write a book, it's going to change your life." And I go, "It's been two years. We wrote a book. Did it change our life?" And then I started laughing because-
Michael: It kind of did.
Kathryn: ... apparently yeah, it has in a lot of ways, right?
Kathryn: Apparently. But you know what? When you're in the middle of it-
Michael: Yeah. I know.
Kathryn: ... you don't stop and look and think. Okay. Think about all the people that we've met. Think about-
Michael: What's the positive version of the lobster in the water. There's got to be a positive version of that. Because it feels like when you're in the middle of it, you don't realize the change. She's staring at me like-
Kathryn: I don't know.
Michael: ... "What are you on about?"
Kathryn: Like instead of boiling to death, there's a positive?
Michael: I mean, it really is.
Kathryn: I don't know what the positive side of that is.
Michael: It really is when you're in the middle of it, you don't realize change.
Kathryn: You don't notice. You don't think. And so to just even take a moment and pause and look back and go, "Look at everything that has happened over two years." Even in the midst of a pandemic, right? Where all the ways that we thought we were going to do book promotion kind of fell apart, right?
Kathryn: And yet we've met people all over the world. We've been on podcasts. We've been interviewed in multiple countries. We've been-
Michael: Yeah. We have, huh?
Kathryn: We've had all of this incredible connection that we would've never had or we would've had differently, right? And that is a huge celebration. And it just happens to coincide that today is the last day in the house I've lived in 24 years and we're stepping into a new adventure tomorrow. Would that have happened without the book? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? So, it's just an interesting mental exercise to pause and really allow yourself to try and think back through the events and all the different things that lead you to where you are and be grateful, right?
Kathryn: And just be like "My goodness." And you know what, you guys? If you're in a really, really hard season, if you're in a place where you're like, "Yeah, celebrate heck. I think I'm going to die," I just want to encourage you to think back to all the times that you were discouraged and couldn't see the way forward, and yet somehow you came out of that and you moved forward. Because again, that will give you the fortitude to keep pressing through whatever the current struggle is. And the more that you struggle and survive, the more that you struggle and come through and thrive, the more that you are equipped the next time a struggle place comes up to know, "You know what? It is dark, but it is not the end of the world. I've been here before. I haven't solved this problem, but I've solved similar problems. I haven't survived this particular crisis, but I've survived a lot of crises. I've survived a lot of loss. I've survived a lot of grief."
Kathryn: Again, it is just part of being human. It's part of the human condition. So, the more that we're able to pause and look back and go, "Oh my goodness, what incredible gifts there have been along the way," and the ways that you have come through and survived and thrived after times where you really didn't see a clear way forward. I just want to encourage you that this is not the final answer. Today is not the final answer for you. So, whatever situation you're in, just know that we believe that there's another side to this and that as you take steps of courage, you'll make it through. And gratitude and reflection is one of those powerful places.
Michael: Yeah. And don't isolate yourself. You are not alone. Find that one or two or three people in your life that can understand. And if you don't have them, know that, if nothing else, this podcast listening, whether we know you or not, we're here and you're not alone. And find some people around that you can trust. That would be really important advice. Find a community. Start looking for community, if you don't have it, of at least one or two people that understand running a company and can be there to encourage you and support you. That's what we are continuing to grow and do. And that's what our business program is all about, is trying to figure out how we teach, encourage and support. So, you're not alone. That's real critical. And it's been critical to our success. All right. That's some good stuff. I think that was really good. There's not much more to add to it.
Kathryn: No. I think we can bring this thing in for a landing.
Michael: So, we just want you to know that today we're really grateful. We continue to practice gratitude in our lives. And this week's just an extra special one for the book, our new house, the team around us that has helped support us and even lets us be in here recording these podcasts while there are clients being taken care of out there because we know we can trust the people around them. Because you can go fast alone, but you don't go far alone. You got to go far together. And having had community around you is critical, especially when you're running a business.
Kathryn: So, we would love to hear. If you're celebrating something, we would love to hear what you're celebrating. It would just be fun to hear the things that you're celebrating. And we celebrate you as business owners and leaders. We celebrate the courage it takes to run and lead a business. If you're thinking about starting a business and you're joining the club, we welcome you and encourage you. Because there is nothing more powerful and well, maybe there's other things, but it's really powerful to run a business, to employ people, to change the corner of the world that you're in through the ways that you conduct business. And so we just want to encourage you.
Michael: So, this is the HaBO Village podcast where we talk about developing the whole leader for the whole business. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: We hope you have a great week and we'll see you next episode.