Michael: Hello, everyone. And welcome to the HaBO Village podcast. I'm Michael Redman.
Kathryn: And I'm Kathryn Redman.
Michael: And this is the podcast that works with business leaders to help you build companies full of Passion and Provision. Companies that have more profit, more purpose, and the legacy you want to leave behind.
Kathryn: I want all of our listeners to know that Michael actually pulled off that entire sentence while almost spilling his coffee cup.
Michael: It was almost there.
Kathryn: He retrieved it. It was very impressive.
Michael: I was successful.
Kathryn: You were successful.
Michael: I was successful. And today's podcast, in the midst of all of that talent, today's podcast is going to be on the issue of core values, how they impact the rest of the company, and accountability. There is a real critical factor we want to talk about here. It's important enough that we've actually got a graphic on the website on the show notes page over at halfabubbleout.com and habovillage.com, where you can look at that. And what we're going to do is we're going to talk through this graphic. If you want to see it, great. It also will be attached, as we said, to the show notes page, it'll be the graphic near the top. And it'll be real important because if you were in our conference room, we would draw this out and have a conversation about it. If you were one of our clients, just like we did recently. And the key is we were in a conversation talking about core values, right, Kathryn?
Kathryn: Right. And about employee challenges and what it is to articulate and hold in place to your core values, which is difficult to do if, first of all, you have never articulated them.
Michael: Well, the clients that we had in were actually coming into develop their vision and work on their vision. And we'd worked through and we start with core values and we started working on these ideas of, okay, what does this look like? What are your three to five core values? We landed with five core values for them. And this is a successful company that has, as far as we know, a great culture, they've been around for years. And they're in the professional services industry. They've got probably 15 to 20 employees. So they're doing well, they've done great. They've got a great reputation in the region. They're a solid company. But they had never clearly articulated their vision. They just led and did a good job leading.
But what we're trying to do is help them because they've expressed the desire to take it to the next level. They really want to articulate and refine. They want to do some things they've never done before, because things were going well, but there's a bit of a plateau. And how do we take it to that next level? And how do we scale? And they're looking at some succession planning also. So, what does that look like? And how does that impact?
And so what we talked to them about is working through their entire vision and the four elements of their vision. And we started with this core values. And with core values, we actually went to the place where it's like, okay, you've got this great company with this great culture, but you have challenges. You have HR challenges. You have employee challenges.
Kathryn: Well, they walked in with employee challenges. I'm really frustrated with our, our [crosstalk 00:03:05].
Michael: They walked in the other day with those [inaudible 00:03:07]. Yeah. It was just, they were cranky about a couple of things.
Kathryn: We were laughing, it was like, forgiveness is a good gift.
Michael: [inaudible 00:03:13] one of them had been holding onto something for a couple of days. And so, what came out of this conversation was an attempt to really try and say, because both the leaders are visual. One of them even more visual, he's like, "Okay, I get this, but what does this look like on the whiteboard?" And so we came up with a picture that I think really helped to articulate, because what happens so often, core values impact every area of the business, don't they, Kathryn?
Kathryn: They do. And let's just remember when we talk about core values, we're talking about the three to five things that are so important to you, that are so profound for you, that if you were told you had to abandon one of those to keep moving forward as a company, you would rather shut the doors than carry on. So that's what we mean by a core value.
Michael: So, what an example of that would be?
Kathryn: So for us, one of our core values is kindness. So that sounds really soft and fluffy to some people. But I will tell you, if I was in a cutthroat, the only way you can actually survive is if you're brutal and mean and horrible, I would just not run the business. I just wouldn't do it. And we've talked about in the past for us, if clients actually cross that line and they become unkind, then we begin talking about this may not be a good client. And we talk about firing clients. So, kindness is really critical for us. So, that's one example.
Michael: Yeah, no, it's great. And so, we always tell the client, "If you had to violate this thing, you would rather close the doors to your company." As Kathryn was saying. That's pretty big deal. And if somebody told you one of those critical values might be integrity or honesty or something like that, because it's like, we're not going to steal or cheat our way through business. And if we've been put in a situation where there have been places in history and even places in our country today where you're a certain industry is bribes are common.
If you're going to get ahead, you're going to use bribes. If you're going to get ahead, you're going to have to stretch the truth quite a bit.
Kathryn: Cut corners.
Michael: And do all of those kinds of things.
Kathryn: Exaggerate.
Michael: So you're not going to be able to stay in business. Well, if that's the case, then you say, "Look, this isn't worth it. This has crossed my core values. And I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to stay in a business like that." So when we talk about that, okay, that affects a whole lot of things. It affects what you need to know. But the first thing core values do is it says, "I'm going to set some standards and I'm going to clearly articulate them. I'm going to codify them." We all have these standards. When we work with leaders, we don't say, "We'd like you to invent some standards."
Kathryn: Just make them up.
Michael: Most people who come here, they've got them. And what they don't know is, "How do I put words to them? I know how to talk about them, but when it's all said and done, it's mushy, it's hard to really nail it down and clarify it."
Kathryn: And sometimes it's hard for them to figure out, "What are the core values that I carry as a human, as a leader, as a person that also translate to the company?" Especially if it's a larger company or you're in a partnership. So then it's that sense of, "What do we articulate that actually holds for the company as well as for my own personal life?"
Michael: Well, and that's a great point, because these two guys were a partnership. There are a lot of partnerships out there, matter of fact, the most successful companies are partnerships. Very few of them or not as many of them are husband and wife teams. But when you've got somebody else there, you've got to sit down and also work through what are our core values, because I may have two or three of my core values personally may not make the list. Because you've got something that's either, it might make the top 10 list, but not the top five.
So you got to work through those and it takes some very thoughtful work to articulate it, clarify it, codify it in a way that it makes sense to others, makes sense to you. And there's some kind of a standard, and the way we write these up is in one to three words, usually, is how we articulate the value. And then we put a sentence after it describing what we mean by that.
We try and hold it to one sentence. Sometimes it bleeds into a compound sentence or two sentences, but the goal is to be able to say, "Here's my core value in one to three words. And then here's what I mean by that." Because there are a lot of fuzzy terms and we want to make sure we're bringing as much clarity as possible to your leadership team and to everybody else on your company. Because the other thing that helps with companies is core values, when they're clarified and written down, you hire, train and fire to your core values we say. Hire, train, and fire.
Kathryn: So, if you have created your core values and you're hiring and training to those core values, then, which is the topic of today, those core values can be used as, ought to be used as, and are actually critical to holding people accountable. So you're working with your employees to say, "This is who we are, and this is how we do things."
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Kathryn: And when that employee doesn't do them or fails miserably on them, we begin to look at, "Can we coach them? Or is this just like there's no way and we missed something when we hired them and didn't realize this is who they were?" So let's talk a little bit about that.
Michael: Yeah. So, imagine a graph that has an X and a Y axis. It's a simple L graph, you've seen them before. So on the left side is the height is zero to 100%. And that's just going to be value lived out. Somebody who just absolutely always lives this value out at its best level would always be at 100%, even our own core values, we don't always live them out at 100% every day.
Kathryn: He is not always kind to me. He's mostly always kind, but not always.
Michael: It's true. Guilty as charged. And so, there are things that happen when you violate, depending on how you violate and you walk through things like apologizing and acknowledging that you didn't do it well. And you failed and asking for forgiveness and those kind of things. But when you're a leader, part of your job, unless you have 100% of your staff is amazing mature people who are always catching themselves and then coming back and saying, "I didn't do that to the standards that are above and beyond the socially acceptable standards." And they apologize and work through that. It would be great if all of our employees were like that.
Kathryn: Super, super, super self-aware.
Michael: If you're a good leader or a great leader already, you probably have a lot of people that are like that. But you don't have everybody like that. And one of the things that happens when companies are growing and one of our clients came in recently and they're doing a great job, they're growing, but they've hit one of those levels. They have about 14 or 15 employees. And they've hit one of those ceilings that they just are having trouble getting past. And they've just done a great job rocketing up through a couple of different ceilings and getting to this one.
But this is the one that's, we all have ceilings that are going to catch us. This one caught them. And so, they're continuing to hit their head on this. And we've been working with them this last year to work through some of the pieces and parts so that they're prepped and ready and there are some plans. But there are some execution pieces and parts that need to happen also. So, here's what happens. You have employees in this example, that are, for some reason or another, have started to slip in their behavior.
You're saying it's not horrible, it's not awful, but it regularly causes a bit of degree of frustration or irritation, like a small net or a grain of sand in the wrong place.
Kathryn: Right. So let's pretend that one of the values is, well, let's just use kindness. I mean, why not? And so, suddenly you have this employee who has been doing well. They've been kind and suddenly they're just super snippy.
Michael: Snippy and cranky.
Kathryn: Like snippy, cranky. They're just not-
Michael: The responses are short more often than not.
Kathryn: They're getting a little chippy, we'd say in the NFL, a little chippy. Getting a little chippy.
Michael: Yeah. Getting a little chippy. And what they do is, it's chippy and then it's not, but they're never coming back to that full, "I'm really happy. It's really easy to be kind." When you're talking to them.
Kathryn: You're like, "Maybe something's happened in their lives." And whatever's happened, they're just not responding the way that they used to. They're not responding as well. They're just not living into the standard that we've set.
Michael: Yeah. But it's nothing horrible.
Kathryn: Not horrible.
Michael: There's no horrible aggression against your standards or your core values. Now I want you to imagine on this line, going from left to right is time. So we've got this horizontal line and we're going to choose to put it somewhere. And in this graphic that we have, we actually chose to put it down around 45%, 40% to 45% of there's a lot of grace, you don't have to be, "Hi. I am always being friendly and happy and everything else." Because sometimes you just like, "I'm just doing business. It's not that I'm being unkind. It's just."
Kathryn: Or, "I have a headache today. I'm just not quite myself."
Michael: Yeah. There's a range of which we all know that a certain behavior core value is just like... And then there's expression. It's going to be expressed in different ways. So some people who are really extroverted, expressive people, we see this in the Myers-Briggs, the expressive quality, they're expressing all their emotions, everything else. So when they're being kind and friendly, it's very evident physically. You can see it on their face. You can hear it. The tone of voice changes and everything else.
Somebody who is more introverted, but especially less expressive. The intent and the heart is there. And the words are there. But there's not as much dynamics in the physical expressions that you see and hear. The face, the voice and all that kind of stuff. So we know that there's, right. There's these variations.
Kathryn: Yeah. It's not like kindness looks the same way on everybody. It just doesn't.
Michael: And a foolish or immature leader is expecting it to always look like they do it. And that can get you in trouble.
Kathryn: Absolutely.
Michael: Since none of our listeners are that.
Kathryn: They're not foolish or immature.
Michael: They're not foolish or immature at all.
Kathryn: They are all brilliant.
Michael: So, what we're doing is we're walking along going, "Okay. We know that we all do that." Now, here's where we get in trouble is wherever that dotted line is, where they start going below that normal variation of standard. And in our chart where we put it at about 45%, we run into this problem where we let people, oftentimes, bounce into that area and we don't hold them accountable. I don't want to go ask somebody what's wrong with them. They're just barely creeping into that place. It's not real annoying, but it's just like their sort of a [crosstalk 00:14:06].
Kathryn: Well, yeah. And you know this is happening-
Michael: When.
Kathryn: ... when you grouse about that person to somebody else. I mean, you know it's happening.
Michael: Or you walk away from the grousing yourself.
Kathryn: Or you walk away, you grouse to yourself or you're grousing to somebody else, but-
Michael: What's your problem today?
Kathryn: ... you're like, "That just really irritates me when that person does that." So that's when you know something's happening.
Michael: That's good. That's really good. So here's what happens. We go, "Well, I don't have time to deal with that right now."
Kathryn: "It's not that bad. Maybe I'm being oversensitive."
Michael: "I don't want to [crosstalk 00:14:34]." But if you thought about it, which is a good idea. Give yourself a moment, take a beat or two, is it worth going back to? Sometimes, it's not worth going back to because it's really, it's not frequent. They dipped below our dotted line there of acceptable behavior, but it's not egregious. It's not horrible. So we've got that first line. The second line is below that.
Kathryn: And it's a solid line.
Michael: And it's a solid red line.
Kathryn: It is not dotted.
Michael: It's the line of no return. When somebody does a thing, they only need to cross that line once. Literally, this is the, "You cross this line, it's not okay to work here anymore." And we're going to talk about having grace and having mercy and coaching and all that in a minute. But the first line, the dotted line, is where you do that. The second line is as if somebody stole from you. You found out that they've been embezzling or they embezzled a significant amount of money from you. That's a fireable offense.
Kathryn: That's not really coachable.
Michael: They created, they behaved towards another person in a way that was so egregious physically or nonphysically that it's like, "You crossed the line." This is like, we're not going to come back from this because there would have to be so much work, so much repentance. So much that went into it. That if you let them stay, it would be a cancer. And it would just eat. If cancer is the analogy. In the body, cancer can get into different places in the body. And it really, as much as we hate the word cancer, it's something you need to take serious, but it's not dangerous in certain parts of the body. You can have a little skin lesion. You can have pieces here and there. But what we find is that as long as you take attention to it, you do surgery. You take it out and you get rid of it and you deal with the cause of it. You're fine.
So, from there, you're good. But if you leave it there too long, what it does, it crosses over into major organs. And it becomes a systemic problem. And then it can cause catastrophe. That can happen in your business. This violation of your core principles, there's a slow wearing away of them when they cross the dotted line, there is a clear breaking in violation. Clear, absolute, no doubt about it violation when they cross the solid red line. And there's a space in-between those that is, "I wish you weren't here. This is really annoying, but we need to deal with it." And what so many people do, leaders do is either, A, a lot of leaders just don't deal with it, period. They don't address it.
And then they're like, "Okay, now we've either have a habit that's been going on way too long." And we've heard this said, even in the last week, twice, two different clients, "I let it go too far. I didn't catch it in the beginning. I was trying to be kind. I also didn't want to hassle with it. It was going to be a lot of stress and tension to call it out on the carpet. I didn't know how to call it out to the carpet. I didn't know how to talk about it and be really clear, because it's kind of vague what they're doing. It's really subjective. And they could say, 'No, I'm not.' I could say, 'Yes you are.' And so, because of that, I didn't want to do it." I run into that problem at times personally.
Kathryn: Well, I mean, one of the things that is on this little picture that we have on the show notes pages, accountability is really hard work, holding people accountable is hard.
Michael: And we talk about this because we remind ourselves and our clients, entropy is always at work in your business. Entropy means things slow down and things degrade. It just is true. Without maintenance and without regular attention, things slip. Imagine the old analogy, I've got a bunch of plates that I'm spinning. And my job is to continue to go back to each plate and spin. Your job is also to understand how long you can neglect a plate-
Kathryn: Before it shatters.
Michael: ... before it falls and the spinning just, it falls. Right? Exactly. Because it's not a crime. It's not even bad if your plates are wobbling a little bit, but they're still spinning and staying up. That happens at times. So then you come back and pay attention. There's a margin of error you need to pay attention to. But so often we're so busy with too many plates. We've taken on too many things. We're expecting to higher standards in places that it's not self-sustaining or we haven't led it to that place.
And self-sustaining means there's a lot of work with not a lot of energy. It keeps going without you having to put a lot of work into it. I don't believe there's anything, as a leader, in your organization, that-
Kathryn: It doesn't need any of your attention.
Michael: Yeah, that you can just ignore and walk away from and come back in an infinite amount of time and it's going to be fine.
Kathryn: Yeah. I mean, even if you have an incredible person leading that area, they still report to you. You still have to keep them moving forward. So they become the plate that you get to keep touching and spinning and moving forward.
Michael: Nobody's invented a machine yet that doesn't need any kind of maintenance over an infinite amount of time. And all human beings need some kind of context. How am I doing? What's going on? What are the fresh goals? I beat all the goals. I beat the deadlines. I'm a rockstar. But you got to give me more. So when we talk about those things, you've got to come back in and there's a book called Fierce Conversations. Is that the name of the book?
Kathryn: Yep. By Susan... I'll look it up.
Michael: Okay. And the Fierce Conversations is one of the books out there that you can find that talk about how do I have hard conversations? I literally, we were in the HR conference room at a client's office recently, and there was a stack of books I was able to get a copy of.
Kathryn: Susan Craig Scott, by the way, Susan Craig Scott.
Michael: For.
Kathryn: Fierce Conversations.
Michael: Fierce Conversations. So this other book was just a great tool. And it was like, I don't know, 75 topics that are hard conversations to have and how to have them with your employees. And one of them was BO. How do you have that conversation?
Kathryn: Nobody wants to have that conversation.
Michael: Like, "Oh gosh, no."
Kathryn: Or even on the opposite side of that, it's when somebody wears too much perfume or too much cologne. And you're like, "I'm getting a freaking headache. How do I deal with this without being rude?" So you go for a headache for like two weeks before you're finally like, "Okay, seriously, I can't do this."
Michael: And this is a great book. And you know what? We're going to have both of these on the show notes page as tools and tips. Because I'm thinking a lot of times we just need a little bit of help or give me a little bit of context. Let me have a slight conversation. And having Fierce Conversations, the book is over the overall concept with some tips in there about how to have hard conversations and why they're so powerful. And why when you hold people accountable, then you keep them not only above the solid red line, but you keep them above the dashed red line. Because what happens is, way too often, people are allowed to be in that danger zone.
And when you look at the national statistics, that 74%-ish, it goes up and down by only about 7%-8%. So it's still relatively high, no matter what. 74% of Americans are disengaged at work, they're sleepwalking through the day. They're not overly thrilled with work. They're not overly engaged with work. And then a small percentage. Those statistics go on to say a small percentage are actively disengaged. They are, I believe, actively disengaged means they're living below the solid red line.
Kathryn: And you're letting them stay there and they're sabotaging your company.
Michael: And the company is [crosstalk 00:22:17]. And they're intentionally sabotaging your company.
Kathryn: Because here's the thing, if you aren't addressing stuff with employees, you could have one or two employees, everyone else on the team sees it. They're seeing it happen. And they're noting that you're not responding to it. So you've articulated, "This matters to us as a company." And then somebody is not living that. And then you're not holding them accountable. That affects your entire team. Because if that person can do that and get away with it and they don't even say anything, then why should I work to live into this value? Why should I care? Why should I continue to try and do my best work when this person doesn't do their best work and you don't even pay any attention?
Michael: Yeah. Absolutely. And so, what we have is we have this idea that in any good, healthy business, accountability is absolutely critical and it's hard work. Because the second point is entropy is always at work in our businesses. And we've got to remember that. So it really is important for us to bring clarity and good communication to leading your company. Those are actually key things to creating a healthy culture, to managing the team well, to leading the team well, even to your financial bottom line, it will impact your customers. It will impact how many raving fans you have. It will impact all kinds of stuff, because it wears on people.
And what happens is, when people are disengaged with work, they do one or two things. They always check out and don't bring their best self, because they just have, and sometimes it's just really hard to bring your best self when there's always a tax, a relational or a community or social tax going to work because of these people. Or they decline. And actually there's probably a third thing. They look for another job. And it's one of the most expensive, hidden costs in America, it's been written about, of the fact of how much it costs to retrain, hire and retrain a new person in your company. It's exorbitant. It's been said that it's the biggest cost in American business, because we don't ignore. It's the biggest, hidden one.
Kathryn: Straight turnover, just straight turnover.
Michael: Go ahead.
Kathryn: And I think sometimes we live under the illusion, as leaders, that once we've articulated something like, let's say we do the work and we articulate our core values. And then we have a company meeting and we tell everybody, and we do a big presentation or we bring in the Redman's to do the presentation.
Michael: Even better.
Kathryn: Even better. And then we've done it. So, it's done.
Michael: Done.
Kathryn: Done.
Michael: It's like the couple that got married and he said, "I love you."
Kathryn: And she said, "Thank you." And now we're 10 years in. And-
Michael: You never tell me, "I love you."
Kathryn: ... I don't feel like you love me.
Michael: Or love me.
Kathryn: Well, I told you once and I didn't take it back. Okay. That's the joke. But here's the thing, if you only-
Michael: I still think it's funny.
Kathryn: ... communicate your values once, maybe you do it company-wide and then you do it at an employee orientation. So you've even done the great work of pulling that into your new hire orientation, your employee orientation. Great job. But if it's the only time they hear it, it won't stick. And it's really difficult to hold somebody accountable to something that they don't remember or that they haven't had continually reinforced in the midst of their working relationship with you, with this company. So this clarity, being clear to begin with matters, but this communication piece, the repetition, the regular reminder that, "This is who we are, and this is why it matters," are just vital.
Michael: Yeah, it really is. And so we come out of this conversation and the reason we wanted to bring this up today is to really introduce this graphic to you and this concept to you and say this is a way to visualize, a very powerful way, I believe, to visualize where we are holding people accountable and living out our core values. So out of this conversation, we say things like, A, you need core values. You need to articulate your three to five core values. And if you haven't written them down, you need to write them down.
Second, if you have the core values, or once you have the core values, then you need to regularly hire, train and fire to them and communicate them regularly as you're talking about. Third, you need to make sure that you're paying attention, because you've defined these, because you're articulating and continuing to teach and train, and part of that training to your core values is regularly highlighting examples of people in your organization that have done well and acknowledging them for doing it. And then regularly looking and watching for people who are sliding on that value and that kind of thing. And then making sure that you're acting quickly. You need to act quickly.
Kathryn: Yeah. Like when something happens, you act quickly. So you see something and you quickly call it out. Not five days later when the person doesn't even remember the context of what was happening and you don't. And also, if you give yourself too much time, then you work it into something that may be even bigger than it is.
Michael: Or it's real to you because it annoyed you, but they never paid twice to it. So they're like, "I don't even know what you're talking about."
Kathryn: Yeah, they didn't ever realize. Exactly.
Michael: So it really helps when you communicate to people, "You did that. That was not okay. And here's why it wasn't okay." It doesn't have to be the biggest conversation in the world, but you start to set a standard or pattern and even documenting the time they cross over the dotted line and what that looks like.
There's moments you'll know you're near the red line. If somebody does something and it so infuriates you, because your core values, the core values of the company came out of you and your partners, leadership team's core values. These are critical and you all agreed to them that they were important. So when you're absolutely offended and feel like you've been violated in your company, because somebody on your staff has done this, you know you're really close or have crossed over that line.
But I would argue that you're near the line and there's a fudge factor, when you're like, "I value this person so much. This was really grievous, but it doesn't feel like it was enough to slice them off, but I'm willing to give them one more chance. I want to see if they're repentant and I want to see if we can correct this quickly. Because I don't want to just haul them into my office and fire them all at the moment." If you feel like you're going to fire them at the moment, you also may be close to it and you have to ask the question, "Are they just above that line? Or did they cross all the way over the line?"
And in both of those situations you have to ask, "But that's kind of that how do I know? I know I'm at the dotted line when I'm irritated and I walk away complaining to myself or to somebody else. I know they've crossed the line when I am so angry and so offended. I want them to leave." And they may have crossed the line and you're like, "I don't know if I should." You don't know yet. You have to think about it. You have to seek counsel. You have to talk with your partners. Or maybe find someone, a trusted, at this point, if you have a leadership coach, talk to your leadership coach. Talk to an organizational coach. Because that's going to be helpful.
So you have this, you need to have core values. You need to have them written down. You need to hire, train and fire to them and use them. And this graph is a good visual way of looking at what that looks like and then think about their behavior and where they might sit on that graph.
Kathryn: Yep.
Michael: Anything else you want to add to that now?
Kathryn: No. I think that's super, super good. And I think this whole concept of, if we're talking and you're like, "Yeah, I really need to get that work done. I haven't done that work," and you need a little bit of help, a little bit of walking through this. We have what we call a Vision mini course, where we really talk through the four core parts of vision and give you some tools and some training on how to do that. So, if you're interested in that, we'll have a link to go out and look at that course in the show notes. And we just encourage you because this is like the heartbeat of your company. If you can't articulate your values, your purpose, where you're going, all those things that are comprised within vision, it's really, really hard to go the long haul in business. It just is. And it's really, really hard to build any kind of a company that leaves you fulfilled.
Michael: It really is. So we're going to have this Vision mini course link on the show notes page at Halfabubbleout.com and HaBOvillage.com. And then from there, if you need more help, then there's always the consulting, bringing our team on to help you walk you through it. And to have somebody from the outside actually asking you these questions and creating dialogue and helping you walk through that conversation.
But if you're not ready for something like that, whether budget-wise or time-wise, or you're not available because you're in a different part of the country. Then this is a great opportunity to get in this mini course, walking through it, walking your team through, it can be really helpful. All right. That said, we really want you to just live into core values and be able to achieve your dreams for yourself, your company, your family, and that's what Passion and Provision is all about. And that's what this podcast is all about, is to help you build a Passion and Provision company full of profit, purpose so that you can leave the legacy that you dream of leaving.
If you want to learn more, continue to come back, listen to our podcasts and go to our website. And with that said.
Kathryn: That's very long, it was good.
Michael: This is the HaBO Village podcast.
Kathryn: You're Michael Redman.
Michael: And your Kathryn Redman. Have a great day.
Kathryn: Have a great day.
